Hand Me A Scalpel

Drunk In The Spirit

December 6, 2006 · 40 Comments

They must have had good reason to say they were drunk….”

The day of Pentecost came and brought with it the advent of the Spirit of God being given to everyone who believes. The initial sign of this was a fulfillment of Isaiah 28:11, i.e. foreign lips and strange tongues. At this, many Jews belittled the event by saying that these were drunk. Most charismatics today will say that they must have had good reason to say this, implying that these saints must have been falling all over themselves, laughing like fools and slurring their words and such like. They argue that there is nothing about other languages being spoken that gives the impression of drunkenness, which is true. However, is it right to assume that these same men who murdered Jesus and mocked Him frequently (not all Pharisees were of this spirit, but the majority were) had on this day any good reason to say the things they said? It is said that they (the apostles and others gathered together) must have been acting drunk, i.e. slurring words, laughing, stumbling around and just acting plain weird and out of place. Apparently the strength of this argument is that foreign languages being spoken are not a good enough reason to call someone drunk. It’s sounds good for a second, but I would like to apply this logic to other previous instances where this same group of Jews gave other descriptions of something Jesus did or of what He was about as God and see how it holds up.
What I intend to show is that not only was there no reason to believe that these disciples were acting drunk and foolish, but that this was the Jews normal way of belittling what was of Christ’s doing in their day. If there was good reason to believe that these disciples were falling, laughing and acting insane, then they must have had good reason to assume that:

(1) “He is demon possessed and raving mad.” John 10:20. Using the same logic that is applied to Acts 2, we have to be fair and say that these same Jews must have had good reason to say this as well. Jesus must have walked around screaming and cutting himself with rocks and breaking chains, running around naked and doing other things like foaming at the mouth, jumping into fire and water, etc. Surely there is nothing obviously demonic about preaching repentance and healing the sick and rebuking double standards! There must have been more activity than just these.

(2) “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon possessed?” John 8:48. He must have had some Canaanite facial features, or maybe he still worshiped in the wrong locations…dang ‘ol high places! It must have been the Canaanite gods that he had in his house growing up as a kid that made people say this. Once again, there must have been good reason, right? Wasn’t there some obviously Canaanitish feature or lifestyle quality that made this a reasonable statement? I mean, all he did was tell them in the previous verse that those who belong to God will hear what He has to say and that these Jews couldn’t hear Jesus because they didn’t belong to God. Of course, ten verses later He calls Himself “I am”. Oh boy, now we know He’s nuts!

(3) “You are demon possessed. Who is trying to kill you?” John 7:20. Once again, we ought to assume that He must have been acting like a madman, making up conspiracy theories about hit men and what not. He must have been making this up out of His head, no less a demon possessed head by virtue of these same Jews having obvious good reason for this accusation, just like they had good reason for the accusation of drunkenness on the day of Pentecost. Right?

(4) “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine and you say, ‘He has a demon’. The son of man has come eating and drinking and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!” Luke 7:33-34.

Are you starting to see my point yet? These Jews/Pharisees had misjudged the one who Jesus said was the greatest man ever born at that point in history. Did John really act demon possessed? Was there real reason to call this accusation out, or was it not even meant to be an accurate assesment but rather a slur? What about Jesus? Did he walk around town with wine on his breath, stumbling through town and sort of “packing on the pounds” as a result of his eating binges? It is clear that these remarks were nothing more than slander in the face of obvious reality. Jesus gave no legitimate reason for the accusations of drunkenness or demon possession. He was sound in His speech and perfect in holiness. John the Baptist was the greatest man born of woman, according to Jesus and equally gave no good reason for the accusations leveled against him.

So, if these accusations are false, unfounded and slanderous, why then do we assume that these Jews were suddenly justified in the accusation of drunkenness on the part of the disciples on the day of Pentecost? Isn’t it obvious that they were simply continuing in the same frame of mind that slandered John and Jesus? Isn’t it equally obvious that we’re making a poor excuse to engage in stupidity at the expense of Christ’s reputation?

I’ve given 4 good examples of this kind of inaccurate judgment on the part of these particular Jews, but I feel more can be explored and needs to be, if for no other reason than to show the overwhelming evidence that supports the fact that these Jews were not making an assessment on the Day of Pentecost that came from solid, logical and weighty outward evidence but rather from the same hate inspired cynicism that caused them to speak out against Jesus’ whole ministry. Observe:

(5) “This fellow (Jesus) is blaspheming!” Matthew 9:3. This was in response to Jesus having just told a man that his sins were forgiven. We know full well that Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sin and that this was not a fair judgment call, nor was it based on or given in the Spirit of Truth. In this same chapter in verse 34 they claimed,
(6) “It is by the prince of demons the he drives out demons.” Once again, is this a fair call? Was there some outwardly obvious sign that Jesus was calling on Satan to drive away demons? Did he sit cross-legged with his thumbs touching his index fingers in a circle, chanting some mysterious incantation and then saying, “Be gone by authority of Ba’al Zebul”? No? Well then, can we assume that there is anything obviously demonic about just simply driving out demons with a word? No? Then what reason did they have to assume this? None. It was hate inspired as was the criticism of the advent of the Holy Spirit’s fall on man on the day of Pentecost.

(7) “Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” Mark 3:20-21. Wow! Now we have his own flesh and blood saying things about him. If anyone was able to make an accurate judgment call on Jesus, surely it would have been his own blood relatives who grew up with him. No doubt they could testify to his “messiah complex” that he had all growing up. Yes, these must have had an insight that no one else could have had. He must have been out of his mind! Who knows you better than your own kin? They must have been totally justified to assess him as insane and needing correction. Yes, these loving and kind hearted family members got together to do an “intervention” for Jesus.
Now, all of this is facetious of course. They were wrong, totally, and Jesus publicly put them in their place upon learning of their demand that he remove himself from where he was and come back home and be sensible. I know his family were not members of the Pharisees, but I use this as an example to show that even those closest to him and (in an earthly sense) most qualified to assess him were still horribly wrong. They looked on the outward sense of things and came to the wrong conclusions, just like the Jews came to the wrong conclusion on the day of Pentecost. Jesus gave no real sign that he lost his mind. He didn’t drool down his beard like King David; he didn’t scribble nonsense in the dirt or any other thing that was a real outward indication of insanity. The only time He ever wrote in the dirt was in the story of the woman caught in adultery, and we don’t know what He wrote, but we know that they dropped their stones and left one by one. Oddly enough, this was an occurrence involving Jesus that brought sobriety, the antithesis of drunkenness.

Are we using unequal weights and measures (Proverbs 20:10, 23; Leviticus 19:36) in our justification of dubious activities that feel good to us or have given some sense of blessing and a “touch”? Have we grown too close to an activity to objectively examine it without prejudice? It seems to me that there is a double standard in place here, namely that we only come to trust the slander of the Pharisees as being justified on the day of Pentecost, but not on any other day. How dare we be so unjust in the handling of the word! Has it now become a self serving device for our convenience, and have we now become as the lawyers of this age who manipulate “law” to find loopholes just to win a case regardless of what is right and just?

If we abuse this text in this way, what other texts of scripture are we abusing for equally self serving ends? We ought to examine ourselves to see what other areas of corruption may have snuck in through the poorly exegeted Acts 2:15 backdoor. If we’re capable of it here, then let’s be suspicious of ourselves and as Paul said, examine ourselves to see if we are in the Faith.

One quick noteworthy thing to remember: the Jews who belittled the believers were the ones living in the land who did not speak the native languages of those sojourners who came from far away lands. These locals were the same individuals who sneered at John the Baptist, Jesus and ultimately the apostles and other disciples on this Holy Day of Pentecost. It was easier for “outsiders” to come and look in to what was happening on this day and to come to the right conclusion. Sometimes it’s good to listen to an “outsider”. We can provide an analysis that isn’t biased toward holding onto sacred traditions that we’ve come to love and ideas about the Holy Spirit that we don’t want altered.
Which group of Jews do you find yourself in: the ones who can’t look past their own bias toward what/whom they think Jesus is, or the ones whose understanding isn’t colored by popular social opinion and can ask the objective questions such as, “What does this thing mean for us?” Are you able to, for just a moment, step away from all the recent hooplah surrounding Jesus and look inside the Word to find out “what these things mean”? I suggest using a bible study search engine (www.blueletterbible.org is great) and looking up the words drunk, drunkard, drunkenness and drunken. Look at the context of these words and ask yourself, “Is drunkenness that is sent from God a blessing or a curse?” Neither New nor Old Testaments ever once mention drunkenness as something to be sought from God nor is it put in any kind of favorable light, be it of a physical or spiritual kind.

I think these are valid questions to ask ourselves and others. We need not be afraid to look into this. Would it really be so bad if we found out we were wrong and God is near to bring what is true in place of the false? Wouldn’t God’s version of reality be better than what we have held on to? I pray that we not be found in the same predicament as our Israelite forbears found in Isa. 44:20—“He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

mark jr.

Categories: Bethel Church · Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry · Charismatic Issues · Christian Living · Doctrine · Faith · Judging · Revival · Spirit Led Living · Things Prophetic · Unparticular Particularities · Word of Faith Nonsense
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40 responses so far ↓

  • Brian // December 13, 2006 at 8:13 pm | Reply

    Good points, I never thought of it in that light. Thanks.

  • iseeitdifferently // December 13, 2006 at 10:50 pm | Reply

    Your welcome. Pass it around to any of your charismatic friends and tell them it was written by one…wait, no. I don’t ever say I am one…uh, like, a recovering charismatic. There we go.
    mark jr.

  • Rod Page // December 26, 2006 at 10:51 pm | Reply

    Just was wondering if you left a response on a website re Bill Johnson from Bethel? Since I live in Redding and have some experience with stuff similar to what is happening at
    Bethel….let me know
    bro Rod

  • mark jr. // December 28, 2006 at 11:04 pm | Reply

    I don’t know if something is wrong with your link, but every time I click on your name, it won’t come up.
    I responded to your question in an email to you…
    mark jr.

  • Matt // September 10, 2007 at 8:15 pm | Reply

    good point and I agree I never looked at it this way.

    I do believe that someone can be so filled up and/or going through a process with the Spirit to where is is difficult to communicate normally with others, and act strange, but it would not be in a belligerent(sp) way or just acting crapfaced because you feel “free”

    When I am physically exhausted/fasting/sleep deprived, I act strange and when I’m really touching the Spirit in prayer it is hard for me to talk about worldly things, so I think discernment is needed in each case.

    This gave me something to chew on, thanks

  • iseeitdifferently // September 12, 2007 at 11:34 pm | Reply

    Crapfaced…..LOL….

  • Mary // September 13, 2007 at 12:49 am | Reply

    Matt,
    I have had times in intercessory prayer where I have cried so hard that for some reason when I get up I stagger like a drunk. I don’t know why that is but I have always been alittle hypoglycemic so fasting does a number on me. I also become very forgetful and have a hard time focussing when I have had a deeply moving time with the Lord. I guess airhead would describe me pretty well.

  • susan // November 1, 2008 at 9:36 am | Reply

    Peter accepts the fact of appearing ‘drunken”. He never denies that or refuted that. He only tries to explain as to what was that phenomena.

    Mark Jr. does seems not to understand this!!

  • cheryl U. // November 2, 2008 at 3:34 pm | Reply

    Susan,

    You said, “Peter accepts the fact of appearing ‘drunken”. He never denies that or refuted that. He only tries to explain as to what was that phenomena.”

    That can be argued mightily from Scripture itself. On the day of Pentecost Peter said, “”For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is {only} the third hour of the day;” Acts 2:15. For about 50 years of my life, I understood that to mean simply that these men were not drunk as the mockers thought that they were. It is only in the last 10 years or so when I was in a hyper-charismatic church that I ever heard it argued that this verse meant the men involved were drunk, just in a different way.

    Do you ever see another place in the New Testament where it gives any indication that people were supposed to be drunk or where they were commanded to be drunk? Indeed, just the opposite is true. The NT repeatedly tells people to be sober. There are several words used for sober–they mean both sober as in not drunk with wine and sober mentally. And if you read through the whole Bible, if I am not mistaken, being drunk with anything but wine is always a negative thing, not something to be desired.

  • iseeitdifferently // November 2, 2008 at 9:10 pm | Reply

    Thank you Cheryl.
    I was going to respond but decided not to. I’ve spent years hearing responses like Susan’s and just don’t have time to keep chasing them around.

    You said everything I was thinking of.

    mark jr.

  • Grace // July 9, 2009 at 5:53 am | Reply

    Um, ok. I am seriously at a question mark point in my life.. I’m not trying to go off topic or anything but I had googled Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry for this very reason–to see if anybody else shared my doubts on some of the stuff that seems to go on there..like alot of the stuff the blogs tagged with BSSM talk about. I’ve been reading them and the comments and all the discussions through and just strongly feel reconfirmed I think in my spirit that this stuff just..I don’t know..something seems blurry.
    I don’t have peace!!
    The last thing I want to do is judge, but I feel a small twinge of desperation setting in.
    I am a “young” Christian in more ways than one and am enrolled to attend BSSM this fall.
    but these doubts on doctrine and teaching are haunting me..
    I have read comments and responses and really tried to do my homework on it.
    And I still feel that something isn’t right. I don’t want to judge!! My Dad recommended it to me originally..And the only reason I wanted to go to the school in the first place was because of the many testimonies of miracles that I heard–ways God seemed to be changing lives–which still baffles me on their “validity.” It just sounds so wonderful. And I want to serve God! I really do! I only have one life, and I want it to be His, all His! It’s just that I also DO NOT want to be deceived!!!
    I just really don’t know what to do. :(
    *sigh*
    Does anybody on here have ANY advice for me?? I turned down some great colleges and now am just starting to feel, well, down in the dumps so to speak..much down.
    and a little desperate.
    I got on this blog looking for answers. Please, does anybody have some advice for me? I have never actually even been to Redding to the school, but I have had people tell me to “Go! Go!” and others to “Oh NO!! NO!!” with great Godly people on both sides..
    I just don’t have peace about some of this stuff at all..Is it something I should overlook as not a mainstream core division concerning belief and truth or should I approach this more seriously? I have heard wonderful testimonies from kids who went there… but I also just have alot of unsettling weight on my mind that will not go away!!
    It’s so annoying really!! I just want to know the truth!!! Please respond someone?

    Sorry if I seem a little unstable or upset, lol
    Love, Grace

  • bpurtle7 // July 15, 2009 at 6:42 pm | Reply

    Grace,

    If you could email me personally I would be happy to offer a few thoughts to you.

    bryanpurtle@mac.com

    Blessings,
    BP

  • cheryl U. // July 15, 2009 at 10:35 pm | Reply

    Grace,

    The more that I read about the things being taught and practiced at Bethel, the more I would say to stay away from their school. Trust the doubts that are in your heart and mind on this one. I don’t believe that the issues involved here are minor ones that should be overlooked. So many practices and beliefs from this church and the whole movement that they are a part of just simply do not seem to line up with Scripture.

    I was involved in a lot of this stuff in another church and I finally came to see that it was just not something that I could continue with at all.

  • mark jr. // July 15, 2009 at 10:46 pm | Reply

    I highly recommend taking Bryan up on his offer.

    I responded in a private email to the young lady, the gist of which was this:
    There are some very unhealthy things there being taught and practiced and at the same time there are things that God might very well be calling her to imbibe. I have been there many times and can testify to some good there. I basically told her to make it a matter of prayer and let the peace of God rule her heart.

    I also told her she could consider FIRE school of ministry.

    I still hold to my concerns about this place and what not, but wouldn’t want to play God for someone else either and it’s possible for Him to call someone there and minister to them and even keep them from the errors by the power of His Spirit through His scriptures. He is God, after all.

    But I would suggest taking Bryan up on his offer. That man has poured into my own life things of such value and eternal import that I’d be at a loss without them.

    mark jr.

  • cheryl U. // July 16, 2009 at 12:34 am | Reply

    Mark Jr,

    Your advice sounds a lot like the infamous “eat the meat and spit out the bones!”

  • cheryl U. // July 16, 2009 at 12:57 am | Reply

    Mark Jr,

    I just reread this article on your blog from several years ago: http://iseeitdifferently.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/how-long-is-it-okay-to-stay-adulterated/

    Have you changed your mind on this matter? If you haven’t, I don’t understand how you could give the advice you did above to Grace.

    Cheryl

  • mark jr. // July 16, 2009 at 1:05 am | Reply

    I didn’t tell her to be adulterated. I didn’t say it was okay for anyone else to be either. You misunderstand.

    What I’m saying is that it is possible for God to take someone somewhere and keep the adulterated mix out of them while putting into them those isolated things that are good and holy. Only He can call someone into that and only He can perform it.
    I’m in a job with filthy porn loving men; yet God has kept that from me and has instilled many other qualities in me from those same men. It’s not okay to have both; and it’s not for man to take it upon himself to put himself in a place like this. Only Providence can do it and perform it.

    I’ve gone to mixed meetings since writing that and have not walked away polluted because I know what the pollution looks, smells and tastes like. I’ve done it at the behest of the Lord, not my own choosing and have done so somewhat begrudgingly and have come away pleasantly surprised.

    I still hate mixture and still speak of it and against it. I point it out when neccessary while not being as rude as in former days.

    I’d say more but I need to go to bed.

  • cheryl U. // July 16, 2009 at 2:42 am | Reply

    Well, Mark, I don’t know what more to say on this subject at this point either. When you wrote that article you believed it to be sin to stay in a mixed bag spiritually. You said to not fool yourself, for eventually the mixture would affect you. In fact the article ended with this statement, “Don’t fool yourselves: you’re not so strong that you can keep drinking poisoned water without it having an affect on you eventually. Quit drinking it!! Dash that vessel to pieces and walk away from it. ”

    Now it sounds like you believe God calls people to drink the poisoned water in at least some cases.

  • Grace // July 16, 2009 at 3:53 am | Reply

    No, it’s ok!!
    I totally understand what Mark is saying.. Because even in my onw family, there is a split in beliefs. One side thinks that all that “stuff” is harmless while the other side is blatantly against it..hence my doubts. So that’s where my struggle was really coming from. One side wants me to go to Bethel; the other does not. And I get to hear both sides of arguments. And honestly, sometimes I really don’t know what to think.. which means I MUST trust God. If He doesn’t have the power to keep me from being deceived, then I have no hope.. at all. It says that in the last days “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
    That right there shows that, if possible, even God’s people could be deceived!!! (If possible)
    But ya know why I think it’s not possible?
    Because God cares enough about us to keep us on the straight and narrow..providing we follow Him. This is the way of the cross, the sheep following the Shepherd.. If we knew everything we wouldn’t need a Shepherd.
    :) So I have prayed and asked God to send me where He wants me to go. Don’t forget, God sees the end and the beginning, so He knows where I’m going and what I might have to face..But He’s promised me that if I keep my eyes on HIM, then He will lead me and prove faithful. It’s His WORD :) ” I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them, I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.” Isaiah 42:16
    So I have decided that I will trust Him. That’s all I can do. I give it to God. :)
    *sigh*
    Thanks so much to everyone who cared enough to respond..lol..I was freaking out a little.
    I’m just not going to worry about it anymore. I have my family for that.. LOL
    *Trusting God*
    Love, Grace :)

  • Daniel // July 18, 2009 at 12:51 am | Reply

    Drunk in the Spirit is awesome.
    Its the best feeling ewer.
    Come on lets get filled with the holy spirit.
    We needs God power.
    With out being filled, we get dryed and thats not good.

    Drink by faith. In heaven we are gonna be filled and drunk 24/ 7 for all eternity.
    Come on take some

  • mark jr. // July 18, 2009 at 7:34 pm | Reply

    Cheryl, again you’re missing it. I don’t recommend anyone “staying” in so much as they eat all that is offered and shrug the shoulders like it’s no big deal. That isn’t discretion, that’s stupid. Like Daniel’s comments.

    I’m talking about particular times, moments or seasons ordained of God for certain reasons of His own. I’ve had Him walk me through stuff like this in recent years. It has not required that I imbibe stupidity, bad doctrine or practice. I’ve been places where I could see something real and something bogus. I don’t advocate just staying in something like that indefinitely and certainly not staying in it and just taking all of it in. You’re not reading me carefully enough…and you’ve not been through what I’ve been through and can have no clue what I’m talking about until you do.

    So I’m done commenting on this.

  • cheryl U. // July 18, 2009 at 9:47 pm | Reply

    Hi Mark,

    Maybe I don’t have a clue what you are talking about, I don’t know.

    And I might be mistaken on this, but from looking at the web page of Bethel’s school, it seems that their courses last from 1 to 3 years. Even 1 year sounds like quite a long time to me to be immersed as a student in a place and atmosphere where there is admittedly a lot of error going on and being taught. Specially for someone who admits they are a young Christian, “in more ways than one.”

    Sorry to have this disagreement with you brother, but I guess we just don’t see this one the same way at all.

  • Rick // July 27, 2009 at 6:24 pm | Reply

    I have had personal experience with BSSM Students, Bill Johnson and Bethel Church. Have any of you actually been there? How many people have you led to Jesus in the last year? How many healings have you seen from your personal ministry? How many lives have you seen changed by the power of God?

    Error being taught? Depends on the lenses you where when reading your Bible. The Pharisees thought they had it figured our as well.

    Why is it we applaud and egg on people who are crying but when people start laughing we call it the devil?

    What about Jesus saying we would do “greater works?” Try reading the book of Acts with out your bias…Trances, visions, transportation, tongues, miracles, healings, dreams…etc.

    Bill Johnson is one of the most honorable, honest, and genuine people I have ever met.

    Most of us Christians have more in common with the Pharisees than we do with Jesus.

  • Rick // July 27, 2009 at 6:27 pm | Reply

    By the way, I have had contact with four bethel SSM students and have seen over 100 healings, and over 20 salvations in our time ministering together…

    you will know them by their fruit.

  • cheryl U. // July 28, 2009 at 2:55 am | Reply

    Well Rick, Bill Johnson has preached in a church I was a part of in the past, people from that church went there repeatedly for seminars and at least one went there for the school of ministry. I also have read things Bill Johnson has written that I don’t believe are accurate Scripturally at all. Even the man that is the owner of this blog says that there are serious problems and error there even if he obviously doesn’t feel as strongly about it as I do. And he has spent time there personally. I have nothing against the gifts of the Spirit at all and I believe they are for today, but some of the things that are taught at Bethel I do have very real problems with. And since there was a very close connection between our church and Bethel in some ways, it is not like I have no real knowledge of what it is like there.

  • Rick // July 29, 2009 at 3:44 pm | Reply

    Cheryl,

    Like? Examples? What books have you read? What things do you find “unscriptural?’

    Without examples all you offer is generalizations that promote distrust and fear. Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand. I met a man with esophageal cancer that was healed at bethel…I have heard to many testimonies to list here. The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons because he was possessed.

    If what bill is teaching is “demonic” or unscriptural, then it won’t stand. But since it has been going on for over 12 years you might want to consider that you interpretations of scripture may need to be reviewed. You might also want to really research what you believe he is teaching in error.

    I believe most of the problem is that people don’t like manifestations of the Spirit. I urge you to study revival.

    And unless you have been there, you don’t have “real” knowledge.

  • cheryl U. // July 29, 2009 at 4:23 pm | Reply

    Rick,

    Have you read the article at the start of this thread? Good case in point.

  • Rick // July 29, 2009 at 4:53 pm | Reply

    Yes I have. Have you studied the etymology of the word joy? Why is laughing in church inappropriate, but crying isn’t? Paul said the kingdom of God is “righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” Rom. 14.17. Jesus said he would make our joy “full.” Paul tells us to be “full” or drunk in the Spirit as opposed to wine. Isaiah said that when God showed up he became “undone.” Acts 2?

    Of course things can be abused and fake, but do we through the baby out with the bath water? Or do we sit behind our computers arguing with other believers about what is “real” and what isn’t while doing nothing to help usher in revival ourselves?

    You don’t want to follow Bethel’s teaching, great, but we are called to show honor to all people. IN my five years of following their ministry and seeing the fruit of multiple people who have been “under” their teaching the majority of what I have seen is good fruit.

    Here is an excerpt from the Theological Dictionary of the NT. The word is chara = joy (one of the words for you).

    He relates joy to religious “intoxication.” Joy is a supreme “good mood.” It is the opposite of fear. Isaac is its OT symbol. God is the giver of joy, and its objects are health, freedom, honor, the good, the beautiful, and worship. While joy is a “good mood” Philo does not view it in Stoic fashion as a self-achieved harmony of soul. Joy is native to God alone; we find it only in God. It comes with virtue and wisdom. But this is possible only on the presupposition that by way of the lógos God himself is the giver.

  • cheryl U. // July 29, 2009 at 5:04 pm | Reply

    Joy does not include staggering around unable of control your body, not being able to remember basic things or to carry on normal functions or to even be able to speak without slurring your words as a person who is literally drunk on wine would do!

    And if you read the Scripture in context where Paul tells us to be full of the Spirit, not drunk with wine (Ephesians 5), he goes on to tell us what “full of the Spirit” looks like. And it is nothing like the scenario I mentioned above at all!

    I honestly don’t have time to carry this conversation on any further. So this will be my last post here on the subject at this time.

  • Rick // July 29, 2009 at 5:30 pm | Reply

    that is fine cheryl…i am done too…with this….

    I don’t have a problem with people who disagree, but what I do have a problem with it the attitude with which it is done. I have had blissful, laughing, joyous encounters with the Holy Spirit. So because you don’t think “joy” looks like that, then my experience is invalid? or because you don’t believe the Bible teaches that? I love the word of God, have been saved for 30 years, have a master in theology, raised in a non-Charismatic churches, went to conservative evangelical college…so I am being “duped” or mislead? Possibly, but I have the Holy Spirit in me leading me into all truth.

    Isn’t it possible that a better attitude would be, “I don’t understand and I don’t think I agree, but it isn’t my place to place judgment.” And then sit back and look at the fruit.

    I am done as well! Blessings…

  • iseeitdifferently // August 5, 2009 at 10:24 am | Reply

    Rick, you may not realize it but you just sat in judgment of us with very critical statements. If judgmentalism is a problem to you, don’t fight it with judgmentalism.

    The Galatian church was sucked into a horrible heresy, yet Paul testified to the Spirits miracles in their midst.

    The Corinthians had more heresy than you can shake a stick at AND every gift of the Spirit.

    Having the power of God is no sign that you teach well or properly. It’s a sign of a loving God who wants to touch people.

    Your attempt to justify drunkenness of this kind with one concordance entry is not honest bible study. You still need to remember something. When you have 50 verses that say one thing and 3 that seem to contradict, you don’t negate the 50 for the 3. You interpret the 3 in light of the 50.

    “…so I am being duped or mislead? Possibly, but I have the Holy Spirit in me leading me into all truth.”

    That is a contradiction to end all contradictions. If you’re duped and mislead by your flesh then you aren’t lead into truth by Him.

    Instead of defensive rhetoric, just look at the words “drunk, drunken, drunkenness” in the bible and see how many times they have positive connotation attatched to them. I fear that you are knee jerking and not engaging the texts I supplied and are trying to use philosophical reasoning to bulwark your thoughts.

    I have to go to work. I have some more thoughts but I’m pressed for time.
    Oh, and try and make sure you argue with a gentle spirit. It makes interaction easier. And make sure you read my disclaimers before commenting. It’ll help you understand me more.

    Thanks Rick and God richly bless you my brother.
    mark jr.

  • AriseMyLove // August 17, 2009 at 2:17 am | Reply

    Interesting testimony from a guy in the Kansas City/Toronto/Lakeland stuff from 2005 here:

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/cul … matic.html

    The “Spiritual Drunkenness” part of it is only small part of his testimony.

    Basically, when you see people staggering around prayer meetings or “revivals” acting “drunk” — God foretold this fake “drunkenness” as being a sign of His coming judgment!

    Spiritual Drunkenness: Last Call for the Sober to Flee

    The Bible has a lot to say about drunkenness, spiritual or otherwise.

    And none of it is good.

    With the Biblical tools we have available today, there is no reason for anyone to be deceived about the “Laughing Revival”.

    My Bible and concordance was all I needed to find out for myself the truth behind so-called ‘spiritual drunkenness’.

    One night, while I was still unsure about the ‘Laughing Revival’ — (and frankly, I was at that time still leaning in favour of it and hoping to have my suspicions allayed) — I sat down with my NIV Bible and concordance, and simply did a word study to see what the Bible had to say.

    I wasn’t expecting to find much when I started, and once I got past the 2 or 3 isolated verses favored by Toronto Blessing supporters (we’ll look at those last)…

    I was very surprised to discover just how much the Bible had to say regarding this phenomena:

    Spiritual drunkenness is a sign of a deep spiritual sleep and blindness:

    Isaiah 29:9-14 “Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless; be drunk, but not from wine; stagger, but not from beer. The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep: he has sealed your eyes (the prophets);”

    Verses 11 and 12 further describe these people as being unable to understand God’s Word.

    Then, verse 13: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Therefore … the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.”

    I don’t know how much clearer the Word of God could be.

    Spiritual drunkenness (“drunk, but NOT from wine”), far from being a sign of God’s blessing and favor, is a sign that the following spiritual conditions and judgments have fallen upon a group professing to worship God:

    1) they are blind,

    2) they have fallen into a deep sleep spiritually,

    3) their prophets are blind,

    4) they’ve lost the ability to properly understand God’s Word (sealed v.11,12).

    The reason for all this is given in verse 13.

    This group of people who manifest a spiritual drunkenness in their worship have, over time, professed to love and worship God, but they have departed from obedience to His Word and have insisted on trying to come to God on their own terms.

    Spiritual drunkenness is a sign of being under God’s judgment:

    Isaiah 28:1,3. “Ephraim’s drunkards”. Ephraim was a name for the northern tribes of Israel, who were at that time seriously backslidden and about to be judged. Obviously, the Bible is not casting ‘drunkard’ in a good light.

    Is.49:26. “drunk on their own blood” in judgment.

    Is.51:21. “made drunk, not with wine” under God’s judgment.

    Is.63:6. “in my [God’s] wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”

    Jer.48:26. “Make her drunk, for she has defied the Lord.”

    Israel’s neighbour, Moab, is made drunk because she has defied the Lord!

    Deut. 29:18-21. This passage describes a person who invokes the promises and protection of God’s covenant, but disregards its conditions.

    He has turned away from obedience to the Lord, yet invokes the Lord’s blessing and protection and thinks to himself: “I shall have peace.”

    Verse 19 (NKJV). “ ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’ – as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.”

    Verse 19 (NIV). The NIV footnote offers the following alternative translation: “ ‘I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way’ – in order to add drunkenness to thirst.”

    Deut.29:18-21 indicates that spiritual drunkenness is a sign that the drunkards have invoked the blessing of the covenant for themselves, yet walk after their own heart.

    Jeremiah 51: A warning to flee because a greater judgment is coming!

    I recommend a careful reading of Jeremiah 51, with particular attention paid to verses 6-9 and 37-45, in conjunction with Rev. 17:1-6, 18:1-8.

    Babylon was a real city in Jeremiah’s day that the Lord was about to judge, but Babylon is also a Biblical type of apostate religion.

    Note: For those who are unsure about using the Old Testament in this manner, please look at the following passages: 1 Cor.10:6,11; 2 Peter 2,3; Heb.10:29-31, 2:1-3, 12:25-27 and Jude.

    Paul and the other NT writers clearly considered that the judgments of God recorded in the OT were still very relevant warnings to us under the NT.

    See also 2Tim.3:16 “ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”.

    Jer. 51:6-9:

    Spiritual drunkenness is an indication that the church is about to be severely judged, and a warning to the sober minded who still remain to get out before it is too late. “Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives!”
    “Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord’s hand [an instrument of judgment]; she made the whole earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; therefore they have now gone mad. Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken.”

    Not only was Babylon under judgment, but she was an instrument of judgment in the Lord’s hands. (This is the Joel 2 Army, btw.)

    Certain ‘revival’ centers made the whole earth drunk, as multitudes poured in from around the globe to partake.

    The results of many deluded pastors who ‘fetched’ the blessing in Toronto/Pensacola and brought it back to their home church can only be described as ‘madness’, as hundreds of churches were devastated.

    Jer. 51:37-45:
    v37,38: “Babylon will be a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals,…Her people all roar like lion cubs.” – animal noises, roaring like lions.

    v38a: “while they are AROUSED, I will set out a FEAST for them” – it’s party time!

    v38b: “and make them DRUNK,” – spiritual drunkenness!

    v38c: “so that they SHOUT with LAUGHTER” – ‘holy’ laughter.

    “then SLEEP forever and not awake, declares the Lord.”

    v40-44: And then final judgment is to follow, “I will bring them down…to the slaughter…”

    v45: The final call for God’s people to get out while they still can.

    “Come out of her, my people! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!”

    This makes it pretty clear. Here we have a people being aroused to party, shout and laugh, roar like lions and get ‘drunk’ just before they are judged.

    The Bible describes in many places that immediately before severe judgment, people are given over to a “party” spirit: a fun-loving, amusement mad, self-gratifying wild party time!
    (What a perfect description of the revelry of Lakeland… btw.)

    See Is.56:12; Amos 6:1-6; Micah 2:11; Is.22:2,13;

    The inhabitants of Jerusalem threw parties as the Babylonian army surrounded their city. Ezek.21:10 “Shall we then rejoice and make mirth?” [when the sword of judgment has been sharpened against us.]

    More Old Testament references to drunkenness:

    The following passages also refer to drunkenness as an indication or sign of being under the displeasure of God and judgment.

    Ezekiel 23:33. “filled with drunkenness and sorrow, the cup of ruin and desolation”

    Nahum 1:10, 3:11. Nineveh drunk under the judgment of God. “You too will become drunk”.

    Hab.2:15-16. Woe to him who gives drink, making his neighbour drunk. Now it is your turn, drink and be exposed! The word ‘be exposed’ used here can also mean ‘stagger’ according to the NIV footnote.

    Is.24:19-21. The earth reels like a drunkard under God’s judgment.

    Joel 1:5, “Wake up, you drunkards.”

    Ecc. 10:16-17. Blessed is the land who’s King is noble, who princes eat at the proper time for strength and NOT FOR DRUNKENNESS.”

    Jer.13:13. The Lord fills the kings, priests and prophets with drunkenness before he judges them.
    Amos 6:6. “You drink wine by the bowlful”
    Micah 2:11. The deceiver says: “I will prophesy for you plenty of wine and beer!”
    Is.56:9-12. “Let us drink our fill of beer!”

    Biblical References to ‘staggering’:

    Staggering ‘under the influence’ or “in the Spirit” is a common occurrence at TB style revival meetings.

    Interestingly, the Bible also has a lot to say about staggering.

    Job 12:25.“They grope in darkness with no light; He makes them stagger like drunkards.”

    Psalm 60:1-3.“You have rejected us…you have given us wine that makes us stagger.”

    Is 19:11-15. “the leaders of Memphis are deceived;…The Lord has poured into them a spirit of dizziness; they make Egypt stagger in all she does, as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.”

    Clearly the sign of drunkenness is NOT a sign of God’s blessing, but of His judgment upon foolish and deceived leadership.

    Is. 28:1-16. The drunkards of Ephraim… “stagger at seeing visions”, “reeling like drunkards”

    Pro.24:11. “staggering towards slaughter”

    Is.3:8. “Jerusalem staggers” under judgment because their words and deeds are against the Lord.

    Jer.25:15-29. In this passage, the Lord has filled a cup filled with the wine of His wrath and makes the nations drink from it.

    Drinking from the cup of God’s wrath causes them to “stagger and go mad” before they are brought to judgment. V.27 “drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more”

    Is. 51:17. The cup of God’s wrath is “the goblet that makes men stagger.”

    Roaring like a lion while in worship:

    Jer.12:8 “she [my people] roars at me, therefore I hate her.”

    Jer 52:38 the people of Babylon [who are under judgment] roar like lions

    Zeph.3:1-4 “Woe to the city [referring to a wicked city under sentence of God’s judgement]…Her officials are roaring lions…”

    Is. 5:25-30 Israel’s enemies roar like lions when they come to devour her.

    Ezek.22:25 false prophets roar like lions.

    I Peter 5:8 The Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

    Jer. 2:15 “Lions have roared” in judgement.

    New Testament references to drunkenness:

    Lk.12:45; Mt.24:48-50 – The unfaithful servant gets drunk.

    I Cor 5:11; 6:10 – Drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Lk.21:34-36; Ro.13:11-14; Gal.5:19-21; 1Pet.4:3; I Thess.5:4-8. – Drunkenness is sinful and will be judged.

    The Word of God clearly censors drunken behavior.

    There are an overwhelming number of verses in the New Testament which ascribe self-control, self-discipline, order, decency, and sobriety as a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    Why then would the Holy Spirit ever induce people to mimic behavior that is censored in the Word and contrary to His own nature?

    And finally, the two proof texts most often cited in support of ‘spiritual drunkenness’ by those of the Toronto Blessing/Lakeland:

    Let’s take a look at the 2 passages of Scripture used by “TB” supporters in an attempt to lend Biblical credibility to their drunkenness.

    They are Acts 2:13 and Eph. 5:18.

    We’ll take a look at each separately.

    1) Acts 2:13, “They have had too much wine.”

    We will look at the entire context of the chapter, from verse 1 to the end.

    In Acts 2:13, it was only the MOCKERS who were making fun of the disciples and said they were drunk.

    I do not think we should take our queue from those mocking Peter and the believers.

    Other than that, there is no evidence in the text that they were acting like drunks, and all the evidence clearly indicates the opposite.

    Peter got up and preached a clear, coherent, hard-hitting gospel sermon that cut the Jews listening to him to the heart with conviction of sin. He did not display anything like drunken behavior.

    Peter’s behavior was nothing like the “revival drunkards” who love to stagger around, slurring and stammering so much that they can hardly put a coherent sentence together, let alone an entire sermon that can bring 3000 new converts into the Church in one day.

    The rest of the 120 that came out of the upper room with Peter were speaking in real foreign languages, clearly understandable to the foreigners visiting Jerusalem at the time, proclaiming the “wonders of God” (Acts 2:11). These people were anything but drunk! Whatever ‘spirit’ the Toronto people are moving in, it’s not the same Spirit at work in Acts 2.

    2) Eph. 5:18, “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead be filled with the Spirit.”

    Read the surrounding verses from 5:8-5:20 carefully: Paul wasn’t comparing the condition of being Spirit-filled to drunkenness, he was contrasting it!

    From verses 8 through 18, notice the contrasts Paul makes between pairs of opposites: light/darkness, wise/unwise, understanding/foolishness, and finally drunk/spirit filled.

    You were once darkness, but now you are light (v.; not unwise, but wise (v.15); don’t be foolish, but understanding (v.17); don’t be drunk, instead be filled with the Spirit (v.18).

    The verse says: “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead be filled with the Spirit.” Do not get drunk – it leads to debauchery!

    Notice the word ‘instead’, indicating a contrasting opposite.

    Paul was contrasting being filled with the Spirit to drunkenness, NOT likening it to it!

    In their foolishness, “revival drunks” actually turn that around to say, “Woohoo, lets party and get drunk in the Spirit!”

    The debauchery Paul warns against in v.18 is just what we are seeing in the wild party atmosphere that now reigns in revival churches.

    The vast number of verses in the New Testament that tell us the Holy Spirit is a Spirit of order and sobriety are stunning. Self-control, sobriety, and order are fruits of the Spirit, and nowhere does it say the Holy Spirit is a spirit of drunkenness.

    Therefore, spiritual drunkenness, staggering, slurred speech cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit of God, as that would be inconsistent with the nature of the Holy Spirit according to Scripture.

    Surely what Isaiah said is true of them: “The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes … For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.” (29:10,11)

    Run for your lives!

    I would like to offer the following conclusions based on the evidence of God’s Word.

    1) ‘Drunkenness’ is a form of spiritual judgment upon a church or group professing the name of the Lord yet have departed from obedience to the truth.

    According to the Bible passages we have looked at, spiritual drunkenness is a form of God’s judgment on a church for the following reasons, as well as being a signal to others that the church has fallen into these conditions:

    a) They are deceived.
    b) They are blind – have little or no discernment left.
    c) Their priests and prophets are backslidden.
    d) They have tolerated false prophets in their midst.
    e) They have tolerated bad, questionable teaching.
    f) They give God lip-service, but have turned away from a carefulness to follow His law. In other words, they love to sing to the Lord on Sunday, but are carnal or even sinful through the week.
    g) They want to serve and worship the Lord on their own terms; set their own altars.
    h) They have ignored the Lord’s Word.
    i) They have sought experience over truth.
    j) Their shepherds are asleep, and have allowed the enemy in.

    2) ‘SPIRITUAL DRUNKENNESS is a signal that another, much more severe judgment is coming!

    More ominously, in these Bible passages, drunkenness actually preceded severe judgment. It is a sign that much greater judgment will follow the drunken party.

    3) ‘Drunkenness’ is a last call to get out!

    Finally, I believe it is a last call to the sober minded who still remain in these churches to get out as fast as they can.

    It’s a clear signal to flee while you still can because time is running out fast.

    In Jer.51, the drunken party preceded final judgment (40-44).

    Other passages listed above bear this pattern out as well. Verse 45 – “Come out of her, my people! Run for your lives! Run from the fierce anger of the Lord.” and again in v.6 the call is repeated to “Run for your lives!”

    If these passages are to be believed, than spiritual drunkenness in a church is a warning from God to GET OUT NOW.

    Don’t hang around such churches – even out of curiosity – just to see what happens.

    From these verses, we can gather that it will not be safe to be in these groups when the next judgment arrives. There is no point in speculating what form the next wave of judgment may take, but it will be very severe and of such a nature that being in these groups when it comes will be incredibly dangerous and foolish.

    It would be foolish to take His Word lightly and disregard the clear warning signals God has given us.

    This was written in 2005 by a man trying to make sense of the nonsense manifestations of the Kansas City Toronto Blessing meetings.

  • Republibot 3.0 // December 5, 2009 at 5:35 pm | Reply

    Good article. Thought-provoking. For myself, contextually, it seems that “Drunkeness” was just kind of a catchall term for acting conspicuously odd in public. Acts makes it clear, for instance, that the accusation was contingent upon the Apostles enthusiastically preaching in languages many of the locals couldn’t understand. ‘They’re babbling loudly, must be drunk,’ that kind of thinking.

    Conversely, extreme behavior seems to have been attributed to demonic posession in the bible, and presumably in the popular mindset of the day. They didn’t have an idiom like we do to dismissively say “They’re crazy,” mildly crazy was simply “They’re drunk,” and massively crazy was “They’re posessed”, regardless of the validity of either accusation.

    THat’s my take on it, but I’m willing to admit I might be wrong.

    Neither here nor there, but Matthew 9:3 and its paralells and echos have always confused me somewhat. From my understanding of Blasphemy, as defined by Jewish Law at the time, Jesus was *not* blaspheming. It was perfectly acceptable to say “I’m the son of God” since any good child of Abraham who followed the Law could realistically say that, and in fact some did. (And we do find a glimmer of this elsewhere when Jesus says he’s the Son of God, and no one seems to mind, but when He identifies Himself as the Son of Man, everyone gets really furious)

  • Matthew Smith // December 6, 2009 at 6:20 am | Reply

    I do not believe that speaking in languages, whether known or unknown, makes someone appear as though drunk. the apostles were accused of drunkenness because of drunken behavior. they weren’t accused of possession because they were not exhibiting the behavior of demonic manifestation. but rather, they would have been acting drunk…stumbling about, laughing, and/or crying, falling down. whatever you think of when someone appears drunk, that is the only thing that makes true sense. this is confirmed later in Scripture when Paul himself in Ephesians 5:18 juxtaposes being drunk on wine with being filled with the Spirit. why that comparison? he could have said, “be not glutted on food, but rather be filled with the Holy Spirit”. but being full doesn’t really look like being filled with the Spirit, unless you count an act of deliverance where someone is bowled over in pain. there is a clear comparison between intoxication and being filled with the Spirit. the song of songs is filled with this language, comparing God’s love to wine, even mixed wine, I might add, which in Hebrew tradition contained opiates (i.e. “drugs”). another example is Jesus’ first miracle…turning water into wine. it wasn’t so much the miracle itself that was amazing, but the fact that He did this at the END of the party. after everyone had drunk all the wine. in other words, they were already drunk. and the master of the house commented on how everyone brings out the cheap wine at the end of the party, but this Groom (i.e., symbolic of Jesus) brought out the best wine for last. this isn’t just a compliment. this is a prophetic statement about what Jesus was bringing, the new wine of the new covenant, which is His Blood, and the New Wine that was poured out on Pentecost. the correlations between wine and God is apparent in Scripture, and validated by Paul’s command to be continually filled in this way. drunkenness in the Spirit is not only biblical, it’s necessary to fulfill God’s calling on your life. also, the word “ecstasis” is throughout Scripture in Greek to compare the “trance-like” state that believers (or unbelievers, I might add) experience when overcome by the Spirit. throughout the Bible when a character was in an ecstasis (Ezekiel, King Saul, Elijah, and in the NT Pentecost and also Paul/Peter at other times) they were in a trance-like state, sometimes exhibiting very odd and extreme behavior. it means to be “outside oneself”, as in a trance. of course, you want to let the Holy Spirit to teach you and guide you in all things, of course. :)

  • Matthew Smith // December 6, 2009 at 7:16 am | Reply

    sorry, I didn’t read the original post, I didn’t realize this argument was retreaded several times. but I don’t read anywhere on this blog about ecstasis. I think it’s important that you guys should study that in Greek.

    interesting that Psalm 2:4 says “the One who sits in the heavens laughs.” speaking of derision against our enemies. if you want to know why God might bring His people joy or drunken laughter, other than He wants us to be happy and for our joy to be full, it may also be because He wants us to laugh at our enemies. “He has set before me a table in the presence of my enemies…my cup overflows…”

    David understood this experience I believe.

  • AriseMyLove // December 6, 2009 at 8:09 am | Reply

    Matthew Smith wrote: “…the apostles were accused of drunkenness because of drunken behavior….”

    Matthew, sorry, but you are in error here. Peter was not stumbling around when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost. HE WAS BEING ACCUSED OF BEING DRUNK BY THE “MOCKERS” WHO HAD TO ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT OF THE GIFT OF TONGUES BEING UNDERSTOOD BY EVERY PERSON THERE WHO SPOKE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

    Now, do you get it?

    Reread EACH and EVERY scriptural reference to being “drunk” spiritually as I mentioned in the above article and you will see that there is a great Delusion going on in the charismatic world, that it is OKAY TO ADD EXTRA BIBLICAL TEACHINGS and “seek” signs and wonders when the Lord specifically says this is NOT of HIM and is UNDER A CURSE.

    Being drunk in the spirit is NOT in the Word but part of the ’strong delusion” that God PROMISES HE WILL SEND UPON THOSE WHO DO NOT TREMBLE AT HIS WORDS.

    Sorry for the “Caps” but you and anyone who believes in the Bill Johnson/Lakeland/NAR stuff needs to WAKE UP.

  • AriseMyLove // December 6, 2009 at 8:28 am | Reply

    Dear Matthew: This is what the Lord says about the difference between true charismatics and false ones:

    “On this one will I look:
    On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
    And who trembles at My word.

    3 “But he who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
    He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
    He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
    He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
    Just as they have chosen their own ways,
    And their soul delights in their abominations,
    4 So will I choose their delusions,
    And bring their fears on them…”

    The Lord is saying that those who please Him are those who “tremble at His Word” in a humble and contrite spirit.

    Then He is saying that those who “overdo it” or those who perform holy solemn sacrifice (such as putting the bull up on the altar of sacrifice) BUT do it in a way as if they are murdering a man… with the WRONG SPIRIT are going to be judged by God.

    Remind you of someone? Reminds me of Todd Bentley, the spiritual “son” of Bill Johnson, C Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce, Rick Joyner, Che Ahn Bob Jones, Paul Cain etc., etc., ad nauseum when Bentley kicked old ladies in the face and called it “holy healing in Jesus’ name”

    Yeah, and Bentley and his UK compadre, John Crowder just LOVE to get “drunk” in the spirit. It is demonic possession of counterfeits.

    Wake up Matthew, time is very short.

  • cherylu // December 6, 2009 at 5:02 pm | Reply

    Matthew,

    I have a couple of quick questions for you. Remember it says in the Gospels that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard? This was in the context of physical eating and drinking by the way–actual wine. So, does that mean that Jesus was actually “pigging out” on food and showing the definite signs of being drunk on actual wine? (Stop and think a minute before you answer. Remember drunkenness is forbidden in the Bible as a sin. Did Jesus sin?)

    Sooo….If they could make this accusation against Jesus with no basis other then they wanted to mock him or put him down, doesn’t it follow that they could do the same thing regarding the apostles at pentecost?

    And if you are going to insist that the apostles had to be acting drunk in order to be accused of it, to be logical here you are also going to have to insist the same was true of Jesus when the accusations were made against Him.

  • cherylu // December 6, 2009 at 5:23 pm | Reply

    Matthew,

    One more thing. You refer to the Scripture in Ephesians where it speaks of being filled with the Spirit and not drunk with wine. Did you ever notice that directly after that command Paul tells the people what they are suppesed to do while filled? How being filled wih the Spirit “looks”, if you will?

    Here is the Scripture:

    “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.”
    Ephesians 5:18-21

    Somehow, that doesn’t sound a lot like laughing, crying, falling down, stumbling around, slurring your words, forgetting your name, not being able to preach a sermon because you can’t remember it, or being totally out of control in a number of other ways like “spiritually drunk” people do, now does it??

  • AriseMyLove // December 6, 2009 at 7:13 pm | Reply

    Dear Cheryl:

    Great points. It is edifying to me when we take the time to really think through the reality of what it must have been like in Bible times. Of course what you are saying is true. Christ would never have acted untoward, flailing, giggling, being unable to even read the Word of God (saw Todd Bentley do this as well as others) doing those strange gutteral verbal outbursts, swaying and jerking — and calling it “holy”.

    But you have to remember, Cheryl.

    There are many people in the charismatic church who do not know how to actually read the Word.

    I mean, their reading of it is only to bolster their behavior or “experiences”, in order to justify somehow their positions.

    This is why the Lord, in both Isaiah and Thessolonians, points out that “He will send strong delusion” or “I will choose their delusions” …

    … on those who do not “tremble at My Word.” Or those who “have not received the love of the Truth”.

    On these people, who do not love the Truth of the Word of God, but think it is a book to justify their own idiotic, immoral and frankly ridiculous behavior by their misinterpretations, God will give them over to Delusion.

    And the Delusion will be used by God to raise up that Joel 2 Army. You know the Army God will “send” against His own people for persecution, purification in Joel 2:25… “My great army that I sent against you”.

    This is a description of a terrible counterfeit of Delusion, for those of us who believe in the gifts of the Spirit and yet also love the Truth of the Word. This is the army of Antichrist, they will think they are born again “Christians” but they will be those who “kill you and believe they are doing a duty for God”. This is why the dominionism of the NAR/Lakeland etc., is so dangerous. Joyner/Hamon/Cain/Jones/Pierce all believe they will have to “kill other Christians” who oppose their teachings and HAVE STATED as much.

    They are the Deluded Joel 2 Army. It is a Jezebelic army. They do not understand the Scriptures but live for “angelic” counterfeits and can not truly preach the Word to the unsaved because they have no personal testimony of how the Spirit helped them personally overcome Sin in their lives.

    Watch how they preach on sin, if at all, and think on these people, these so called “leaders”. Notice they always seem to blame the “devil” for their own heinous sin and NONE of them have a proper testimony of how their lives were transformed from darkness to light, from sin to into the newness of the Lord.

    I hope Matthew is not one of them, but the test is how he handles and understands the Word of Truth.

    Oh, and also note that none of the NAR liars ever understands the necessary “death to self” of carrying our Cross daily.

    They are drunk upon their apparent spiritual “power” not realizing that it is God giving them over to demonic delusion of doctrines of demons and of course, demon trickery.

    Bless you Cheryl and Lord, spare true faith in Your body!

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