Hand Me A Scalpel

The Perfect, a.k.a. Cessasionism’s Achilles Heel

December 9, 2006 · 17 Comments

Let’s discuss wether or not the full spectrum of gifts are still for us today or wether having the full canon is simply good enough and once that happened certain gifts ceased.

This is the major problem with many today. They are guided by their own understanding of how to apply the word when they see fit and how and have no sense of the direction of God which comes by the Spirit. So this has to be dealt with first. I quote Hebrews 1:1-3 “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purifacation of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”

This seems to be the poster boy verse for those who do not believe that God speaks through anything other than the Bible. The problem with that conclusion is that this is not what Paul is teaching at all. There are some important facts to consider here. First of all, Paul is writting to Hebrew Christians who are backsliding into Judaism. They are going back into trying to follow the Law and Prophets by sheer pysical exhertion. Paul’s number one reason for relating this statement about Jesus is for these people to realize that Jesus wasn’t just a prophet whom God spoke through, but is very God Himself! In fact, to read into this some kind of moratorium on further speakings of God to the human soul is to eisegete this passage rather than drawing from it what is actually there. It’s interesting that Paul says “long ago”. Before John the Baptist and Jesus came there was a 400 year prophetic silence. The kingdom of God introduced by John and inaugurated through Jesus broke that silence and is what God had been saying and was currently saying to Israel. I’m tempted to want to get into the rest of the chapter, but then with a book of this calibre you have to really go after the whole letter. I only wanted to first point to the fact that this is NOT a proof text that God no longer speaks to His own and says nothing of the sort, nor does it even hint at it. This is Paul stating emphatically that Jesus is someone whom God spoke to the Jewish people through and that he isn’t just the Prophet Moses spoke of, but God Himself and he is to be obeyed and not retracted from.
If it had said, “God spoke to us by Jesus and that is all He has to say anymore” then not even the bible should be considered inspired or worthy of our consideration since all of the NT was written a considerable amount of time after He ascended. If Jesus was the last thing God had to say, then what are all these letters we canonized and called “Scripture”? No friends, God did speak to us through Jesus and Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come to us and carry on through us the work that Jesus did. He never implied any other. The fact is is that there is not one single scripture verse which says (without perverting it) that the supernatural elements of the church will go away when a book is pulbished. That’s like saying you don’t need gas in your car now that you have the builders manual from the production plant. Sure, let’s start in the Spirit and end in the flesh and work out all the complexities of the Word of God in our own understanding since God no longer speaks and just wants us to read the bible and do as we see fit from it. I’ve seen more disaster done in this kind of living. People who are doing technically biblical things and yet it is misapplied or done too late or too soon. Without God’s Living Voice guiding us and teaching us all things and guiding us in truth, the bible is like straw in our mouths. For instance, in Proverbs 26:4-5 it says, “Do not answer a fool according to His folly or you will be like Him. (5) Answer a fool according to his folly or he will be wise in his own eyes.” Now what the heck do you do with that? How do you know when to open your mouth and when not to? It says do both opposites and gives good reasons why. Only a man who’s in step with the Spirit of God will know; only that one who knows His voice and His promptings will answer/not answer the fool in his folly. But He’s no longer speaking to us, then how do you know what to do? You’ll lean on your own understanding and flesh out, that’s what you’ll do.
Another problem with this view is that if it’s true that God quit speaking after Jesus came and went, then what does that do to the testimony of the apostles? What about the prophets listed in Acts 13? What about the rest of the book of Hebrews? Was this an uninspired book since Jesus isn’t talking to anyone anymore? And most importantly, what do we do with the fact that The Revelation of Jesus Christ was penned by John the Apostle nearly 30 years after Pauls death? If Jesus was the last statement of God to anyone, then what do we do with the Epistles and The Revelation? Was Paul saying, “God doesn’t speak to us anymore now, so even this letter is totally uninspired by reason of this same logic”? If God wasn’t speaking anymore after Jesus then not even the letter to the Hebrews is worth anything. Some folks don’t have their logic worked out to well, but this is what happens when you create theology to suit your lack in the church. We make excuses that become law, then we call it “orthodoxy”. Is orthodoxy just another name for heresy?
I believe people take this view with this text because of how they view 1 Corinthians 13:10. The problem is that verse 10 is viewed independant of the rest of the context. Let’s quote it…by the way, I’m quoting the NASB. If you’re a KJV only guy/gal, keep it to yourself and don’t bother with dumb comments or I’ll gong you.
Actually, I’ll start in verse 8. “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophesy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.”

From this many have concluded the “the perfect” is here meaning canonized scripture. How in the world that conclusion is reached is beyond me. Let’s look at what “the perfect” will accomplish once it is here.
(1)Partial knowledge will be done away with (v.8) and will become complete knowledge (v.12), i.e. we shall know fully as we have been fully known. On this point I have to ask, “Since we have recieved the complete canon, do we now know fully as we have been fully known?” Do cessasionists mean to tell me that they know everything about everything in the same way that God knows everything? So now we no longer have partial knowledge? How arrogant! Then who needs Heaven?
(2)Partial prophecy will be done away with (v.8).
(3)Tongues will be done away with. (v.8)
(4)We will be fully grown spiritually (v.11).
(5)We will see Face to face (v.12).

In other words, these gifts will no longer be necessary when “the perfect” arrives. What does the context reveal the perfect to be? Well I can tell you this: not even a slight hint at a completed book is mentioned here, but what is mentioned is eternity, heaven, seeing God face to face and knowing all things just as God has always known them. Knowing everything won’t make us God, as some have said, but that’s another post for another day. We will still be His creation and still not able to make people out of dirt, but I digress.
It’s interesting; I find Paul saying in verse 11, “When I was a child I used to….reason like a child.” My, my, my, how so many of us intellectuals fancy ourselves so grown up in our wisdom. Paul here is comparing the eternal glory to certain aspects of being immature and incomplete mentally with growing up and putting that way behind you. Even so, we will put off this earthly tent and become complete in Him. But that hasn’t happened just by virtue of having the Bible; we are still in our corrupted flesh that is childish, selfish and basically evil. Let’s face it; since the bible became complete, we didn’t. Since the canon arrived, we have not come to know fully as we are fully known. We don’t see Him face to face, rather we see dimly as if looking through a tinted window. How in God’s name can we even for a second try and believe that the bible has made us to know everything God knows? What utter foolishness.

So that’s somewhat of a foundation. It doesn’t take much to upset the poor theology of cessasionism, just truth.

So yes, we need the gifts of prophesy, knowledge and *cringe* even tongues; not so we can all stand in a room and shay-tay-shon-dye and be the exact opposite of 1 Corinthians 14, but to keep our inner man edified. More on the proper usage of this gift later. It’s a huge can of worms and when I open it all the pentecostal people are going to want to hang me….kinda like the cessasionist does right now.

Alright, so let’s get into the other stuff…
mark jr.

Categories: Cessasionism · Doctrine · Things Prophetic
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17 responses so far ↓

  • Craig Adams // December 13, 2006 at 2:10 am | Reply

    *smiles*

    The easiest way to settle the argument concerning whether God still, noramlly and typically moves supernaturally is to demonstrate.
    1 Cor.4:20 says that the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power.
    Witnessing God move, whether by word of knowledge, healing, or some other supernatural manifestation of God’s power, fairly well settles the issue.
    Perhaps some will be foolish enough as to assert theat the one Jesus said only comes to kill, steal and destroy did the helaing, or the miracle, just as the foolish said when Jesus did these things.
    But wouldn’tit be an upside down world if God made people sick to “teach them” or “develop their character”. and Satan set them free form affliction?

    I say set aside witty words, and by demonstration of power, let the matter be settled.

    Craig
    Metanoeo.us/blog

  • iseeitdifferently // December 13, 2006 at 11:01 pm | Reply

    Eh, not quite bro.
    You see, even Jesus told us that those same exact miracles can be duplicated by satan. People thought that Simon the Sorcerer was from Heaven. They called Him “The Divine Power”. He had supernatural abilities that would astound us today. Anti-christ will call down fire from Heaven. The occult today performs healings all over the world ranging from regulation of brain chemicals to cancer being healed in Buddhist temples through chanting and sound tones. Mormon high priests can heal, as can experienced Wiccan practitioners. Power in and of itself is no absolute assurance of the source being God.
    If power demonstration is all we need to run after something, then we’ll swallow all kinds of crap and call it God. It has to be in line with the revealed character of God.
    Don’t get me wrong, I eagerly desire spritual gifts in a way I can’t express, but that won’t get me jumping up to run after every prophetic/healing conference. In fact, I stay away from those after my years in the charismatic movement. Thank God for Art Katz, David Wilkerson, Carter Conlon, Leonard Ravenhill and many others who’s preaching has pulled me out of folly and madness and into sanity of an ultimate kind. Art Katz is the biggest influence of them all, but I digress.
    Satan will do anything to trap someone. Physical healing isn’t freedom if it keeps you in darkness and puts you in hell and he’s all too willing to do that. And don’t forget about Job. He did exactly what you think is upside down…God ALWAYS does the opposite of what we percieve to be humanly good. He shames our wisdom. Elisha suffered from a disease that he died from, yet was so saturated in the anointing that his bones could raise the dead! Don’t get too comfortable in charismatic “oral tradition”. It’s just as religious as Pharisaical religion.

    Gotta put away groceries, buh bye.
    mark jr.

  • iseeitdifferently // December 13, 2006 at 11:23 pm | Reply

    I should quickly state that it wasn’t just the preaching of those men that pulled me out of foolishness. Actually it was a nagging discernement that wouldn’t go away no matter how many “fall on the floor drunk” meetings I went to. Then I started studying the bible. Then it was all over. After that, I heard the preaching of these men and it only solidified what Jesus was already at work doing. Praise His Holy Name!!
    mark jr.

  • Mary2 // March 13, 2007 at 5:39 pm | Reply

    All the more reason to sharpen our swords and increase our spiritual discernment. It’s hard to walk in the middle if you know what I mean. Not many who have the true gifts poo poo the poor use of spiritual gifts being used (or fake ones) today and are willing to use them in a true biblical manner. Thanks for your incite on this Mark Jr.

  • mbaker // March 14, 2007 at 3:21 am | Reply

    What are the “power” gifts without accompanying humility and glory being given to the Giftgiver? Nothing but manifestions of human ego, period. And don’t we all love it when folks say “Isn’t he/she anointed?”

    Manifestations, in power, as it is presently practiced in our very own charismatic denomination, often become just another way to get a satisfying pat on the back by our peers. And all too often, it turns into a competition among charismatices to see who is the most “anointed”.

    That does nothing to edify or promote the gospel, or carry out the commision of Christ. And to me, at least, that’s always the bottom line.

    Such indiscriminate use of the spirtual manifestions of the gifts by those who would use them for their own glory, or to bolster their own sense of self esteem, just reinforces the argument in the cesessionist camp, not refutes it. So even those who do try to truly use their God given gifts for the edification of the church are lumped in with these.

    That’s what concerns me. What say you fellow charismatics who are observing this to be the rule anymore in so many ministries, rather than the exception?

  • Iwanthetruth // March 14, 2007 at 4:42 am | Reply

    “Such indiscriminate use of the spirtual manifestions of the gifts by those who would use them for their own glory, or to bolster their own sense of self esteem, just reinforces the argument in the cesessionist camp, not refutes it.”

    The more and more that I walk this “life in the spirit” the more I have come to the place that the gifts are NOT the focal point. The charasmatic church puts so much emphasis on the gifts and experience and I see so many people who just go gaga over the things of the Holy Spirit. I have said it before and I’ll say it again, He, the Comfortor, the teacher of all Truth points us to Jesus. Even this past weekend I was at a church meeting and AGAIN, it all became out self. The “more Lord, more Lord” became the norm of the evening as self became the focus and the Lord was in the back seat. I don’t know, I am just plain sick of it.

  • Mary // March 14, 2007 at 5:43 pm | Reply

    The more and more that I walk this “life in the spirit” the more I have come to the place that the gifts are NOT the focal point.

    Looking back on some of the circles I have been in where the gifts were present (I was very active in Intervarsity Christian Fellowship)
    I don’t really remember spiritual gifts talked about much but they were there-several of my friends spoke in tongues and I think maybe the regional director of our area had the prophetic gift. No one felt excluded -many probably were oblivious to the presence of those gifts yet every one benefitted from them because they brought spiritual depth and incite. It’s just a shame that everyone feels the need to be labelled on either one side or the other-I’m charismatic, she’s not etc. Goldliness and spiritual growth should be the point of it all- then maybe some of the cessationists would get a clue.

  • mbaker // March 14, 2007 at 7:53 pm | Reply

    Good point, Mary. I think we often forget that charismatics are not the only ones God gave spiritual gifts to.

    So either way, whether a believer misuses a God given gift or talent, or fails to use them at all, the entire church loses something valuable.

  • Mary2 // March 14, 2007 at 10:33 pm | Reply

    absolutely.

  • Helm // July 6, 2007 at 12:05 am | Reply

    Great article. And we now from Eph 4 (there the word perfect is also mentioned in context with the spiritual ministries) that the ministries (and that includes the gifts) will be necessary until the church has become “the perfect man”. With this scripture we have the answer, how long the gifts will be in action. The perfect has come when Christ is coming bakc to take his bride home, when the earth is finally at peace, when christ is ruling the earth and the law goes forth out of zion…

    by the way, to annoy the cessasionists a little bit more:

    In this scripture it is not said, that tongues will cease when the perfect has come. It is written that when the perfect has come the gift of prophecy and the gift of knowledge will cease, but not the gift of tongues, so if a cessasionist claims, that tongues have ceased because he has his full bible, that is totally unscriptural…but this kind of argueing is spiritually fruitless anyway, so i shut up ;-)

    it is said in 13:8 that tongues will cease, but nowhere it is said that they will cease when the perfect has come…

    (I come from a cessasionist background, so I am very familiar to this thoughts…)

  • Kim // July 20, 2007 at 4:21 am | Reply

    When i rededicated my life to the Lord about 5 years ago, He started a work in me. I gave Him full reign of my life. I started receiving visions and words. I had to know if these things were from God since we are to test the spirits. I delved into discernment sites. I came across Discernment-Ministries which is AOG. The women i met there are wonderful examples of God’s servants. (I have a protestant background.)

    I questioned EVERYTHING i received, and waited for confirmation. The Lord called me to Him in various ways and also gave me some words for one other person. Also a prophecy of a coming judgment.

    While this was going on i was learning about the charismatic extremes. I learned, to my relief, that i have never asked for the “power”, or involved myself in any methods that would alter my consciousness that would open myself up. This was all a learning process for my training. I fear for those who are deceived and pump out prophecies on The Elijah List and those who follow false prophets.

    But i agree with Mary. While we are to desire the gifts, they are not the focus. As i mature in Christ, the gifts i were given initially are diminishing. I am getting stronger and being used in other ways. They may return if God so wills to use me in this way, i simply do not know, and i do not need to know. I am simply His to use as He sees fit, day by day.

    Do i believe that the Gifts are for today? Yes indeed i do. BUT..much discernment is needed.

    Strong’s concordance gives various meanings for #5046 “perfect”.

    1. It is an end.
    2. Wanting for nothing.
    3. Perfect.
    4. Consummate human integrity.
    5. Full grown, adult, mature.

    I long for the perfect one to come for us. When he comes i hope He finds me wanting for nothing, but Him. I pray that i continue to grow in Christ, that i will no longer need milk, and will be complete in Him.

    kim

    http://kimolsen.wordpress.com

  • iseeitdifferently // July 20, 2007 at 8:19 pm | Reply

    I have some more thoughts about “The Perfect”.

    There was some discussion of this topic over on The Sign of Jonah. They said that “the perfect” couldn’t mean Christ, and they’re right…I’ve never maintained that position. I said that it refered to a condition of being. I looked at that word for perfect and found that it’s never used to describe Christ, but it is used to describe the eternal condition of the heavenly Father. Jesus said, “be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is PERFECT.” The key word for me is the word “is”. He IS perfect, always. And so shall we be…we will be like Him. “The perfect” is the condition we will enter into that is the condition which the heavenly Father has always been in.

    I’ll do more on that later, maybe make it its own post.
    mark jr.

  • lbolm // December 5, 2007 at 9:45 pm | Reply

    in looking at the Matthew Henry commentary on 1Cor13:10, it leads you to believe that “the Perfect” will come in heaven alone, much like you say Mark as it being a “condition”. If that is true then we should all continue in spiritual gifts until we reach “the perfected state of heaven”.

    I will have to pray on that one for awhile!

    Love in Christ Jesus
    Jake

  • Rob // January 18, 2008 at 4:54 pm | Reply

    Mark:

    I’ve just recently stumbled across your site, which then led me to look at Totem to Temple & Sign of Jonah… I love all these blogs!

    I grew up in much of the charismatic craziness…. We started in an AoG church, then moved on to the Word-Faith thing…

    Thankfully, in college, my discernment and friends got the best of me and I moved out of that realm fast. Then it was on to grad school and many of my charismatic friends were getting too much into “revival” in my opinion. Too much emphasis on “manifestations.”

    So now I’ve been going to a dispensational Bible church for the past 6 years. I still consider myself to be a “continuationist” with respect to the sign gifts… which means I can’t be on staff at my church. I’ve become a regular listener/reader of John Piper and Mark Driscoll. (I assume you may not be a big fan of them by your Blog Roll)

    Anyhow, your blog is great because unfortunately my family is now embedded in the “prophetic movement.” Attending Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry, reading the EList, Signs&Wonders Conferences, Voice of the Apostles, etc.

    Its all too much, but I love reading your perspectives as you have first-hand knowledge and have come to see the light!

    Thank you!

  • iseeitdifferently // January 18, 2008 at 8:57 pm | Reply

    Actually I like John Piper a lot. I listen to Sproul, MacArthur and Allister Begg (sp?) everyday…well, pretty much. I do work.
    Nah, a lot of my favorite preachers are Calvinists, especially Paul Washer. Love the man…

    …but I do not hold to certain specifics that they hold to. But after looking into revival history I see major, culture changing moves of God coming through Calvinists and Arminians. Bless God…

    So I have no desire to waste time arguing over those things when they are men of God, used of God and empowered by God to do mighty deeds for His kingdom. Many things that must be recovered are coming back to the church at large because of these men and it has had no small impact on my life.

    Just so you know…

    …I’m no Dan Corner…

    mark jr.

  • Rob // January 19, 2008 at 2:37 am | Reply

    Yeah… I agree that God uses Calvinists & Arminians alike…

    It just becomes a bit of contention with my family (who do not like Piper) because we were raised in the AoG which very much Arminian, and I don’t understand how the crew that believes that God wants to heal everyone, all the time, could believe in God’s absolute sovereignty.

    I think that the Bill Johnson crowd has God being limited by what we do, believe, or pray. Very man-centered, in my opinion.

    Thanks again…

  • HumbledByHisGrace // March 17, 2009 at 9:40 pm | Reply

    Hello my name is Carlos…i recently exited the Oneness Pentecostal organization…it’s quite a long story but in summary-God saved me and 3 months after my conversion i met some guys who belonged to this Oneness Pentecostal church…well me not being grounded in biblical truth joined the church they were a part of. i never truly and fully accepted every doctrine they taught but as time went by and i continued to become grounded in biblical truth…God strongly convicted me to leave…it was difficult since i was so involved and was a youth leader but had to please God rather than man…during the year that i sought God on when i should leave this church i got into evangelism with brothers from other churches(trinitarian) and came across Paul Washer’s shocking message…it confirmed so many things that God had already been showing me…this, of course, led me to reformed theology and this was, along with a true biblical understanding of the Trinity, the thing that tipped the balance over and i left that church as soon as possible. I’m a reformed continuationist now with a deep desire to reach out to these people as well as to extreme charismatics who have been led astray…I’m currently looking for a home church and more than likley will end up staying at Sovereign Grace Church here in Houston/Pearland, TX…

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