Hand Me A Scalpel

…it’s only nine in the morning!!

May 13, 2007 · 30 Comments

This will be a quick little addendum to my Holy Ghost Drunk and Drunk in the Spirit articles.

I recently acquired my set of Adam Clarke commentaries. Wow. Immense breadth of knowledge and insight into the cultures of the times of the writtings in the bible. This is what has caused todays little contribution. I went to have my oil changed and my truck inspected and brought my commentary along with me to read while I waited. I wanted to see his mind on Acts chapter 2. Then my eye’s fell on his comments on verse 15, which I will quote in a moment. But when this hit me, I felt as though a huge revelation was given. Once again for my Reformed friends, I mean revelation in the sense of that which is already true being revealed to me when I had not previously known it, not “new truth” that is outside the scope of that which is already established biblically or contradictory to the nature of God revealed in scripture.

If you haven’t had any experience with charismatic nut cases who abuse scripture, you just haven’t lived! You don’t know what elevated blood pressure really feels like until you’ve heard one of them say:
“Well, the 120 from the upper room must have been acting drunk for everyone to say that they were.”

Now there’s a new excuse for ungodly behavior coming out of Bethel Church in Redding, CA. Of course it may have come from someone else who passed it on to them. Whatever…I have still heard that phrase quoted by the congregants and the pastors before. It goes something like this:

“Notice that Peter didn’t say they weren’t drunk. He just said they aren’t drunk the way you think they are.” I’ve heard him say this many times, and it was posted on their website a while back in a foolish article called, “Drunk People do Crazy Things” or something like that.
This is how they interpret Peters statement, “these are not drunk, as you suppose….”. For one thing, this violates the clear language of scripture and all this is obviously implicit in Peter’s statement. Secondly, there is a very profound reason why everyone knew that Peter was in fact saying, “these guys aren’t drunk at all…”. His reason for this was simple: “it’s only 9 in the morning!”. What does 9 in the morning mean to us?

For me, it meant nothing for years. I used to party all the time. I’d be drunk at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 AND 9 in the morning, so why not these guys?
You see that right there? See what I just did? I showed you the pathway to an assumption when knowledge is missing. We interpret the bible according to 21st century thought and reason and culture. You see what happens? We don’t understand cultural realities relevant to the times of the writtings of scripture, so we make up rediculous and stupid crap like this.

So what I’m saying is that there is an important piece of Jewish culture that we don’t know anything about that will give the insight into this saying of Peter’s. It will sort of dial in the camera lense of biblical understanding and interpretation, giving a clear understanding of what he meant.
So how can we prove that the people being addressed understood Peter to be saying emphatically that none of these were drunk, and that because it was only 9 in the morning?

I quote Adam Clarke on Acts 2:15, page 695 of his volume on Matthew–Acts:
“Verse 15. the third hour of the day] That is, about 9 o’clock in the morning, previously to which the Jews scarcely ever ate or drank, for that hour was the hour of prayer. This custom appears to have been so common the even the most intemperate amont the Jews were not known to transgress it; Peter therefore spoke with confidence when he said, these are not drunken—seeing it is but the third hour of the day, previously to which even the intemperate did not use wine.”

*sigh*

This is in regards to the accusation of drunkenness leveled against those first 120 disciples whom the Holy Spirit fell upon in Acts chapter 2.
Now, I have already dealt extensively with wether or not the 120 were drunk in anyway. The logic of “they must have had a reason to think they were drunk” has already been shot here and here. So, needless to say, we won’t be “going there” on this one.

I’m tempted to just let this ride on Adam Clarke and call it a day. But…
…notice the culture regarding food and drink and the hour of prayer. They wouldn’t even eat a normal breakfast before 9, much less indulge in alchohol. Also of note is that even the “intemperate” didn’t drink before 9. So society as a whole knew better than to make a slander of this kind, and in fact this insult carries more gravity because to imply that these were drunk meant that they had standards that were lower than the low who would drink all day. Again, this is keeping with the same spirit of insult that labeled John the Baptist demon possesed, Jesus a drunkard and glutton and demon possesed and many other things like this.

You see what not studying the historical facts of the days of the apostles can lead to? Making up stupid reasons to back up your bogus and Godless laughing/drunk-in-the-spirit parties is what it leads to. Ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is darkened understanding. Ignorance is lack. And you know what else? Ignorance is no excuse.

If these guys would spend a little time studying the bible (I don’t even go to seminary folks, I just try as best I can with what I have!) they would quit embarassing themselves with doctrines that can’t even hold water for all the holes in them.

John Wesley’s note on this same verse says, “…on the solemn festivals the Jews rarely ate or drank anything till noon.”
Remember, this is the feast of Pentecost here. This is a very solemn and holy occasion that commemorates the Great Exodus from Egypt. This would have no doubt created the atmosphere that Wesley speaks of here, i.e. abstinence from all food and drink till noon.

Historical context is so important to understanding the bible guys!! Don’t look at the bible through 21st century American eye’s!

If the folks in these prophetic/apostolic/laughter/other-dumb-psuedo-movements would actually study just a little….

But until they do, you guys can on your own. I recommend investing in Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole bible (not the cutesy little concise one, the big dawg), Adam Clarke’s commentary on the whole bible, Kael and Delitzch’s commentary on the Old Testament and the works of John Wesley. Look for these things through discount bible bookstores (mail order or online) or Ebay or Amazon. Get ‘em used if you have to, I did.

Anyway, you can be just as informed as a seminary student without going to one. You can pay 50,000 dollars for a seminary education at a prestigious university of Divinity or invest about $1,000 dollars in some high quality material (over a few years if your broke like me). IT CAN BE DONE!!!

mark jr.

Categories: Bethel Church · Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry · Charismatic Issues · Christian Living · Doctrine · Unparticular Particularities
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30 responses so far ↓

  • livingjourney // May 14, 2007 at 1:02 am | Reply

    Good post.

    I have e-sword software downloaded on my computer with a variety of different commentaries and dictionaries. I just downloaded a little each month.

    That was free, it just cost me my time, that is all.

    Good post by the way!

  • iseeitdifferently // May 14, 2007 at 1:35 am | Reply

    Yeah, it’s free, but reading online burns my eyes. I’ve found that nothing substitutes for good old fashioned page turning. I don’t know what it is….maybe the colors, lights or whatever, but that dang computer screen just kills me after about 30 minutes. With a book, I can read for hours.

    Thanks for stopping by LJ.

    mark jr.

  • Mary // May 14, 2007 at 11:12 pm | Reply

    I didn’t know where to put this,

    Did you know on the news tonight they mentioned a projection date of 2017 for micro chips to be implanted in humans with medical history and other information included?

  • iseeitdifferently // May 15, 2007 at 12:07 am | Reply

    LJ,
    I have E-sword also, but something about staring at a computer screen for four hours just kills me…and me and the wife like to sit together and read/study, so being on the computer that long makes us feel kind of “apart”.

    Mary,
    They’ve had that technology in the wings for a while now.
    Time to start doing home births!

    mark jr.

  • iseeitdifferently // May 15, 2007 at 12:09 am | Reply

    Also, I recommend studying the word “mark” in the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel.

    It’s a spiritual designation of who you belong to. I believe there may be a literal one also, but it’s spiritual I.D. before it’s a physical one. You’ll take the physical one if you already bear the spiritual one.

    mark jr.

  • livingjourney // May 15, 2007 at 12:42 am | Reply

    []You’ll take the physical one if you already bear the spiritual one.[]

    Oh yeah, I believe that!

    I will just cut and paste this from the greek concerning the scipture in Revelation:

    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    Mark in Greek from Strongs:

    G5480 χάραγμα charagma khar’-ag-mah From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): – graven, mark.

    From the same as:

    G5482 χάραξ charax khar’-ax From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): – trench.
    G5482 χάραξ charax the Thayer Definition:

    1) a pale or stake, a palisade
    2) a palisade or rampart
    2a) pales between which earth, stones, trees, and timbers are heaped and packed together
    Part of Speech: noun masculine A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from charasso (to sharpen to a point, akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)

    Six Hundred threescore and six in Greek from Strongs:

    G5516 χξς chi xi stigma khee xee stig’-ma The 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (G4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral: – six hundred threescore and six.

    G4742 στίγμα stigma stig’-mah From a primary word στίζω stizō (to “stick”, that is, prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition of ownership), that is, (figuratively) scar of service: – mark.

    Now… that is wierd. The number 6 in greek is stigma and is shown as a cross, a fallen one if I remember correctly, like this…(x) and I remember seeing an oil painting on a website, and that painting was found in the vatican somewhere. The painting was of saints that all had the stigma on their arms as they say this is a sign from God and that they were the chosen ones. This was some years ago that I saw this painting, and for the life of me I cannot remember where I saw it. It was one of those times where you say… hmmm that interesting, but give it no extra thought. Then when you further your studies you recall it and think…. well that really IS interesting!

    And I remember a show about the book of Revelation on SBS sometime ago. On that show they had documented about a statue of Nero that had been found, and on that statue was the stigma etched on his forehead. They said that the stigma was not part of the original statue, but was basically etched on by the early Christians during their persecution.

    But I will have to do a study on the word ‘mark’ in ezekiel, as you have suggested.

    V

  • Mary // May 15, 2007 at 3:10 am | Reply

    ok,
    I’ll look up “mark” and give it a go.
    I knew the technology was there because of the pet microchips being injected (?) placed by veterinarians. I guess it was just a shock to hear it so definitely occurring within 10 years. Sobering.

  • livingjourney // May 15, 2007 at 5:59 am | Reply

    Ummm, I commented but I think it went to your spam filter?

    It had some greek text in it. It was about the ‘Mark’ in Revelation and the number 666.

  • Mary // May 15, 2007 at 4:46 pm | Reply

    those evil spam filters are controlled by satan
    and don’t want us to know the truth of your comment livingjourney!

  • iseeitdifferently // May 15, 2007 at 10:20 pm | Reply

    I’ll check it real quick…brb

  • iseeitdifferently // May 15, 2007 at 10:27 pm | Reply

    Okay, fixed it LJ.
    It spamed me too!! And I didn’t put anything wierd in it at all!

    Good post, that stigma thingy and all.
    The Anti-Christ seems to be a guy who unifies all faiths. Who but the ecumenical Roman Catholic church would be a greater candidate?

    Maybe it won’t be them….but it’s compelling.

    mark jr.
    p.s. I highly recommend visiting the Ben Israel website and reading the articles pertaining to Israel and what is known as “The Time of Jacob’s Trouble”. Very insightful.

  • livingjourney // May 17, 2007 at 10:07 pm | Reply

    You managed to find my spammed comment and re-post it. Thanks for that!

    Vee

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 12:21 am | Reply

    Talking about stigma or stigmata- it’s always the catholics (priests, nuns) who manifest the stigmata as a sign of christ crucified and their association with his suffering. But its’ also seen in exorcisms (on the demon possessed person)where a catholic priest is exorcizing a demon out of someone. I don’t know what this has to do with anything just thought that it is interesting. I have never heard of any stigmata’s appearing on someone’s body who is demon possessed when they are being delivered by a non catholic.

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 12:23 am | Reply

    So maybe you are onto something livingjourney.

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 12:25 am | Reply

    Sorry Mark Jr. for totally getting off the topic
    of your blog!

  • livingjourney // May 18, 2007 at 2:32 am | Reply

    Mary, that is what struck me about it also. It does seem weird doesn’t it?

    I think that when the Catholic priest gives out the host at confirmation doesn’t he do the sign of the stigmata as a blessing on the forehead, that sign being this …’x’ and they use their thumbs that have been either dipped in oil, ash or holy water?

  • livingjourney // May 18, 2007 at 2:33 am | Reply

    Yeah Mark, I am really sorry about highjacking your post!

    Forgive us please!

    :)

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 3:31 am | Reply

    I was never confirmed so I can’t answer that. If you are talking about when getting communion,
    he makes the sign of the cross in the air.
    If you want to get really weirded out go to
    http://www.occulopedia.com/religious_mysteries.htm
    this occult sight has an encyclopedia of the occult
    which has believe it or not alot of stuff about catholicism and also stigmata.
    Also there is some catholic artwork-namely about Mary which is pretty weird. So all this weird stuff about catholicism apparently fits in well with the occult. How about the weeping eyes of statues. Now that’s occultic. Really gives me the creeps and yet I would imaging the catholic church would heartily support these phenomina.

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 3:32 am | Reply

    (I’m thinking Mark jr. is going to kick us off his blog) lol

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 3:36 am | Reply

    I also think my last post went to spam. But you may not want the web address posted on your blog of the occult site I meentioned.

  • Mary // May 18, 2007 at 3:40 am | Reply

    let me add this, on the website mentioned, the stigmata appeared on the very faithful after lengthy meditations on the crucifixion or contemplation of a sacred image or object. Sounds occultic doesn’t it?

  • iseeitdifferently // May 18, 2007 at 11:02 pm | Reply

    You guys are dorks…

    And yah, I thought about the wierd RC element as well.
    Dinner time, gotta eat me a rotisire chicken!
    mark jr.

  • Nautilus423 // February 29, 2008 at 4:14 am | Reply

    Okay…so I read this through, and nothing hit me. So I read it again…and still, no real point was made. Then I figured, third time’s a charm, and just for extra back-up I got my dad (the one who knows Greek and Hebrew, and has a Masters in Systematic Theology) to read it as well. He also couldn’t find a single relevant point that you used to illustrate that the apostles weren’t (as we call it now) “drunk in the Spirit.” If it were nine in the morning, and even the lowest of the lows wouldn’t be drunk by then, then the Pharisees wouldn’t have even thought to say such a thing about the apostles being drunk, unless something was out of place.

    I’m gonna refer back to your blog about how you think Jesus isn’t a friend of sinners. I think there may have been a misunderstanding on exactly what you meant by “friend,” but that’s not what I’m attacking. Your logic was taken from when Jesus was accused of being a drunkard (I think also demon-possessed) and then called “friend of sinners.” Obviously since the first accusations are nothing close to an accurate description of Jesus, you pointed out that there is no reason to feel that the second statement was true, as many people will believe.

    I’m gonna tell a story about me in seventh grade. The kind of kids I hung out with all the time were all stoners. They smoked weed, did acid, drank, all kinds of stuff. And naturally because I hung out with them, most of the people in the school who knew me automatically assumed I participated in those things as well (I never once have been high or drunk on anything.) So, someone might, by observation from who I hang out with call me “A stoner, you’re friends with the losers.” Now, obviously the first accusation (me being a stoner) isn’t correct, I never once participated in that. But, the second statement about me being friends with them was completely, right on. So your logic that because the first claim by the Pharisees was wrong, so must be the second claim, just isn’t consistant. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s -not- true, but it certainly doesn’t mean it is.

    You applied this same logic to the apostles being accused of being drunk, and then Peter said they weren’t as they supposed. So you think there is no reason for anyone to believe anything other than that the Pharisees were simply calling the apostles the same slanderous terms as always, without being provoked by odd behavior. This still doesn’t make sense; even when one might make fun of someone, most often he/she won’t make up complete lies. It almost always involves some root form of truth, to get people to believe it when it’s twisted. The Pharisees probably saw Jesus in the same vicinity as the sinners and drunkards, and so labeled Him a drunk. Just because Jesus wasn’t drunk, doesn’t mean He wasn’t hanging out with them, because that’s the true criteria by which the Pharisees made the false accusations. That is how deception works. In this case, your logic just isn’t valid.

  • Tim H // February 29, 2008 at 5:34 am | Reply

    Act 2:13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

    This verse doesn’t prove that they were “drunk in the spirit” either. It does say that some were mocking, which to me the interpretation of that could very well be that they didn’t know how to respond and I am not sure that they could even see them because it states that they heard the tongues not that they even saw them acting in any specific way.

    Matthew Henry states:

    The scorn which some made of it who were natives of Judea and Jerusalem, probably the scribes and Pharisees, and chief priests, who always resisted the Holy Ghost; they said, These men are full of new wine, or sweet wine; they have drunk too much this festival-time, v. 13. Not that they were so absurd as to think that wine in the head would enable men to speak languages which they never learned; but these, being native Jews, knew not, as the others did, that what was spoken was really the languages of other nations, and therefore took it to be gibberish and nonsense, such as drunkards, those fools in Israel, sometimes talk. As when they resolved not to believe the finger of the Spirit in Christ’s miracles, they turned it off with this, “He casteth out devils by compact with the prince of the devils;’’ so, when they resolved not to believe the voice of the Spirit in the apostles’ preaching, they turned it off with this, These men are full of new wine. And, if they called the Master of the house a wine-bibber, no marvel if they so call those of his household.

    I believe the point of this post was that this verse to be used as one to support being “drunk in the spirit” is a poor use of the verse. It doesn’t prove that the apostle were drunk and personally I don’t think they were even acting that way.

    And remember this was a continuation of a previous post on the subject.

  • iseeitdifferently // February 29, 2008 at 9:46 am | Reply

    Thanks Tim.
    Yah, slow down son.

    And having a Masters isn’t a bullet proof vest. This was a part 3, read the other two. It’ll make much more sense as a whole…

    And yes, the Pharisees did make things up. Jesus wasn’t demon possessed nor was John the Baptist. There can be no root of truth there. It is a mocking suggestion made.

    mark jr.

  • Nautilus423 // February 29, 2008 at 8:09 pm | Reply

    I read the other two. And it’s likely that the Pharisees made the assumption that Jesus was drunk and demon-possessed because of their observation of who He hung out with -the people who were drunk and demon-possessed. It’s just not reasonable to think they pulled that out of thin air.

  • iseeitdifferently // February 29, 2008 at 10:49 pm | Reply

    Yes, it is reasonable. He Himself never exhibited even the slightest bit of indulgence in food or drink. It was a lie. The Pharisees were liars. Jesus said that their father was the devil, a liar. Liars make things up. Jesus said clearly that they speak the words that their father speaks. So yes, according to Jesus, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that liars lie and make things up to slander Jesus and the apostles who followed Him.

    What’s not reasonable is to think that the apostles of God made fools of themselves, slurred their words, fell on the floor, stumbled and denegrated the holiness of God. When the price you pay for “blessing” is the slurring of God in public, you’ve paid too high a price and you don’t have a “blessing”, you have a cathartic experience charged with ‘feeling’, absent of the reality and majesty of a holy God.

    And don’t try that thing that Bill Johnson came up with; “Peter didn’t say they weren’t drunk, he just said they weren’t drunk in the way the Pharisees thought they were”. That is stupid and totally twisted. Any Greek grammarian worth his salt can clearly show that the construct of that sentence leaves no room for that kind of scriptural acrobatics. It was an emphatic denial of what they were accused of, very strong language used by Peter.

    The Pharisees made no assumptions, they outright lied. They weren’t misguided, they were slanderous sons of their father who is a liar and when he lies he speaks his native tongue.

    Drunkenness of any kind is absolutely, 100% antithetical to what the bible teaches regarding physical and mental sobriety. You cannot make it work. And it’s a hermenuetical “no-no” to throw away hundreds of verses with clear meanings in favor of a perverted interpretation at worst, a wrongly reached interpretation at best.

    mark jr.

  • Nautilus423 // March 2, 2008 at 9:44 pm | Reply

    I do believe the Bible is pretty clear about not being drunk with alcohol. -With alcohol. But anyway, to the original point. Liars don’t make things up, they only twist what is already there. The devil doesn’t make things up, he’s not even that creative. Satan simply takes good things that God has made (for example; the healthy desire for sex within marriage) and twisted it. That’s where pornography comes from, as well as pre-marital sex. It’s just a huge perversion of good things that God has made specially. There’s a sort of trend among a lot of teens this generation, they’ll cut themselves. I know a lot of people who do it, it’s almost become a fad now. But if you look at the root of it, it’s almost just a twisted idea of Jesus dying on the Cross. In the O.T. God required a blood sacrifice for sin atonement, it’s almost as if people feel that they need to spill their own blood to make up for sins they’ve committed. They might very well have good intentions, but through the way, it gets so sickenly perverted and twisted, it comes out as nothing close to the truth and they’ll cut themselves.

    You know that parable of the seed and the sower, where it talks about the seed being the word, and how it’s thrown everywhere, on rocks, among thorns, on the street, and some even falls on good soil and grows and flourishes? It’s sort of like that. The Word of God seeks expression all over the world, but if it doesn’t land in good soil it might come out twisted or shriveled. Does it anger you that sometimes other religions might get things right? Even Islam and Buddhism have things about them that are very Biblical. Sometimes that can be intimidating, especially if it feels like people will be attracted to that instead of Christ. But it shouldn’t surprise you that there is even a little good in things that are so false, the Word of God seeks expression everywhere. It just doesn’t always come out good.

    This theologian Ken Blue once was talking about when he went to India for a missions trip. There was one town where they worshipped rats. They had a temple with hundreds of thousands of rats that they’d feed. He recalled how many of the men there might word 12 or 14 hours in a day, just to make enough to feed for their family. And it just makes you think, “What in those men influences them so much, that they’d have so much integrity and character to work so hard for their families, all while worshipping a rodent?” God’s heart is all over the world, and His Word is everywhere, in some root form. It’s just not always ripe or healthy.

    My point is; nothing is inherently evil. God created everything, and once called it Good. Things have only been corrupted from that state. The devil doesn’t have power to create more evil, just twist what God has already made. The devil is a liar, and the root of lying is based from that. Lying is just perverting the truth. The lies from the Pharisees were based upon some form of truth. Jesus was hanging out with sinners, so they then perverted that into calling Him a drunkard and demon-possessed.

  • cheryl U. // April 23, 2008 at 10:08 pm | Reply

    Nautilus423,

    In case you are still coming to this site, I just have to say this. Your assertion that liars don’t make things up is, just twist what is already there is just bizarre. How many murders, thieves, etc. when caught have hotly denied having anything to do with the situation? How many times have they come up with some alibi proven false? Do you have any children? Ever caught one of them red handed in trouble of some sort and have them tell you, “I didn’t do it, my brother did?” That’s twisting the truth and not making something up? What about the made up story an adulterous spouse tells to cover their infidelity? How many times do people make things up to impress others or to gain their trust, especially now days on the internet? Come on. You’ve got to do better than that in your arguments.

  • Republibot 3.0 // December 5, 2009 at 5:41 pm | Reply

    A bit off topic, I guess, but I’m trying to find out more about this Bethel Church for a friend of mine, and I find myself growing more concerned about them.

    I’ve been in Charismatic churches and non-Charismatic churches on and off through my life, and of course there’s a wide spectrum of charismatic churches – some are extreme, some pretty laid back. I’m more comfortable with non-charismatic churches, but I’m going to a mildly laid-back Charismatic one now because there’s little alternative in my neck of the woods.

    My concern is that whether or not Charismatic churches are valid in general, there seems to be a disproportionate (to me) emphasis on emotionalism, and hence a disproportionately large ammount of abuse, scandal, and sordid behavior in a *lot* of these churches. I can name two off the top of my head that I’ve personally attended.

    I’m not saying the whole movement is wrong, but it does seem inordinately subject to corruption.

    All of which brings me back to this Bethel Church thing: A friend of mine’s kid is going there, and he asked me to look in to it for him. Should I be concerned for his kid? What kind of a church/school/thing is this place?

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