Well wasn’t He? Don’t we have a cutesy song about that sung by Chris Tomlin? Or is it Charlie Hall?
Anyway, I’d like to investigate the claims that people make today based on the bible verse that mentions something to do with the idea of Jesus being a friend of sinners. So let’s go to the word…
Matthew 11:19 says ’19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
The preceeding verse describes another slur of the Pharisees leveled against John the Baptist in which he is alleged to have a demon. Now, did John the Baptist have a demon? We all know he didn’t. So then it is obvious that this statement is a slanderous remark to denegrate John. Then Jesus gives another example of the slander of the Pharisees by stating what they say about Him. So….did they all of a sudden tell the truth about Jesus? Were they right? Was Jesus a glutton and a drunkard? No, He wasn’t. So how does it follow that so many today in modern Evangelical Christianity so glibly say, “Jesus was a friend of sinners”? If the first two statements weren’t true, how do we suddenly turn and interpret that third statement about Him as suddenly being accurate?
Jesus is also pointing to the duplicity of the Pharisaical mind current in His day. John was a Nazirite and ate insects and honey, yet they labeled him as having a devil.
Jesus did not restrict Himself from wine and good food and they said He was a glutton and a drunkard, and at other times also said He was demon possessed. So you have two opposite lives (respecting diet) with the same conclusion being drawn from two polar opposite lifestyles. The reason for Jesus pointing out these two statements made by the Pharisees was that their objective was slander, no matter what kind of rediculous conclusions they had to come to.
Now then class, how did Jesus define friendship with Himself? Did He ever hint at sinners being His “friends“?
Let’s first look at a time when Jesus describes the quintessential elements of friendship with Himself.
John 15:14-15: 14You are my friends if you do what I command you.15No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
So, uh…hmm…I don’t see Jesus saying, “those of you who love and live in sin, your my buds man! Let’s hang out and just chill so we can connect”. In fact, this statement is in a greater context that is in the beginning of this same chapter. Jesus, several times, admonishes his disciplies to abide in Him and reinforces that sentiment with a powerful illustration. No time for that now, but here is friendship with Jesus defined: “Live in me. Hide in me. Every thought, word and deed should be done in the consciousness that you are no longer your own, but are now mine. When you live this way, I will dwell in you. My Words will dwell in you. My thoughts I will make known to you. You and I will be inseparable friends for eternity.”
Nowhere in here is there a sub-clause for living like you want and still having relationship/friendship with Jesus. He said clearly in verse 14 that we are friends IF we obey. Disobedience toward Christ is not friendship with Him. He may love you, but He will not maintain “friendship” with you, i.e. make known to you what the Fathers will is for you or share any other thing with you.
I don’t really feel like going through the hundreds of N.T. scriptures that talk about the destiny of sinners, that is, those who live that life consistently with no regard for God. If that is you or someone you know, Jesus is not your friend. He defined it, not me. This isn’t my personal opinion or biased judgment. He said Himself that we are friends ONLY if we obey. In the preceeding verses He spoke of abiding, dwelling in Him and that from there He does the same in us. With that as our spiritual anchor we are naturally (supernaturally I should say) motivated to obey. In obedience (and in nothing short of it) is friendship expressed toward us from Jesus. Notice I didn’t say love, I said friendship. There is a difference. He loves everyone (He even loved Hitler, but he went to hell) and will never stop, for that is His character, but He is not friends with everyone. He does not share His thoughts with everyone. He does not share scriptural insight with everyone. NO!!!
He shares His life with His obedient friends.
Jesus Christ, friend of sinners?
Nope, not on your life….
mark jr.
73 responses so far ↓
mbaker // May 26, 2007 at 5:26 pm |
Mark, Jr.
So glad you addressed this topic. In this age of political correctness it is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied parts of scripture.
We are saved by grace that is true, but our continuing obedience is required by God as His children. If our children were doing wrong we would not reward them (hopefully), but expect them to abide by the rules of our household. It’s funny that we, as members of God’s household cannot see that He requires the same loyalty.
Thanks for bringing this to light.
God bless.
P. S. Although I won’t be posting except occasionally because of my work, and present health problems I’m thinking of you guys fondly.
totaltransformation // May 26, 2007 at 5:33 pm |
Excellent post, and long overdue.
iseeitdifferently // May 26, 2007 at 6:12 pm |
Mbaker,
nice to hear from you!
We miss you sister! Thanks for stopping by.
TT,
thanks for visiting. Loved that article on your site…you know, that one that every husband likes?
lol…
mark jr.
mbaker // May 26, 2007 at 11:37 pm |
Thanks, Mark jr.
Thought you might like this quote from A. Z. Tozer. It goes well with your post.
“Quasi Christians follow a quasi Christ. They want his help but not his interference. They will flatter him but not obey him.”
Mary // May 27, 2007 at 12:38 am |
Very good Mark Jr.
I never looked at that verse that way
“a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!”
If the first part is slander the second part of the statement is no different.
cool stuff!
Sam // May 27, 2007 at 3:29 am |
WOW. That is an eye opener. I grew up in church hearing that in literally 30 or more “songs of praise”.
That is a revelation from God.
Now that makes me think of how many songs, and beliefs are really like that in our modern church.
I love those old hymns.
-Sam-
James // May 27, 2007 at 5:23 am |
Christ came to die for sinners. He didn’t die for the righteous. He didn’t only die for His friends. What is the big deal?
You sound like another person who has written off the sinners. Aren’t you glad that He didn’t write you off? If we have such an attitude, how do we reach them?
Jesus ate with the sinners. The first century Jew would never “defile” themselves in that manner. It was a battle of religious ideas, bad attitudes, and customs.
I suppose the battle continues… I say if we can’t make a friend, we can’t lead them to the Lord.
americanpentecost // May 27, 2007 at 7:20 am |
You don’t have to “make a friend” to lead them to the Lord. You have to make them aware of their need of a savior to lead them to the Lord.
Your statement that “he didn’t die for the righteous” is really silly- of course he did, that’s how they became righteous.
Years of turning Jesus into a Buddy Christ have not done him any favors, instead it has created a generation that can not speak of the cross because they have never visited the cross. Young people whose idea of “serving the Lord” is playing on a praise team until they get their break and become bonafide Christian rock stars, then they can minister in general terms for two minutes at the end of their hour long set.
These are not the type of believers to leave everything and go and win the world for Jesus or to suffer for the kingdom’s sake.
Give me a savior terrible in his majesty, awesome in his splendor and equal to the task of judging any day over this Laodicean impostor messiah so popular with this generation any day.
Why don’t we see revival? Because we have never seen the cross, that’s why.
mark jr. // May 27, 2007 at 2:50 pm |
Thank you A.P. for saying that. For those of you who don’t know who A.P. is, he is a good buddy of mine named James, obviously not the same James who commented above him.
James, re-read the emphasis I made. I clearly said that Jesus’ love is not taken away and I defined His friendship with scripture instead of typical evangelical smchmaltzy rhetoric as you have. You missed the point of the article.
The issue isn’t staying away from the world at all. I never hinted at that. Paul said that if we were to stay away from the world we may as well leave now.
Thank you for being a good example of paying no attention to what you read and getting huffy and emotional because one of your categories was seemingly offended….which it wasn’t, you took the thrust of this article and totally misinterpreted it. The point is that Jesus defined who His friends are clearly. He did so love the world that He GAVE, no doubt. But that isn’t the point. Friendship is defined as conveying His thoughts and intentions to one in covenant relation to Him and that only happens after one is born again.
Gotta go,
mark jr.
Mary // May 27, 2007 at 5:49 pm |
I am remembering back on how I became a christian, and it was made clear to me I was on the outside look in so to speak. I knew without a doubt that my sins separated me from Christ. Truthfully, if I weren’t a christian, I don’t know if I would become one now in this day and time because the gospel is so distorted and muddied with warm fuzzy thinking. Yes, God is love, He will always love us forever, that clear in the article. But there is a punishment to be paid. In “The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe” there is a line where Lucy meets Aslan, and she needs to get past him. She says something to the effect of -But you are a lion and may kill me. Aslan says -Yes, I may kill you. That is the picture of Christ. He should instill a healthy respectible fear in us and yet he extends mercy when we understand we don’t deserve it. That is the wonder of the gospel.
Mary // May 27, 2007 at 5:53 pm |
So James,
It does say in the gospels he didn’t come for the righteous. Because those who think they are righteous don’t see their need for Him. How can anyone see their need if all we give them is -Jesus loves you. That’s the message of contemporary christian music and that is the modern gospel. It is powerless to bring about true repentance.
James // May 28, 2007 at 9:12 am |
americanpentecost wrote, “Your statement that “he didn’t die for the righteous” is really silly- of course he did, that’s how they became righteous.”
Excuse me. That is not what Jesus taught. Mat 2:17:
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Didn’t Jesus say that “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
Did He die only for the few first-century friends he made? Or to sinners everywhere?
I do not want to be at odds with you guys. I’m sure we have the same goal. I think Christians have written off large segments of the population. Gays. Lesbians. Drunks. And from this post, sinners in general.
It is not the message, but the attitude that I take offense to. It is our job to reach these people some way. Maybe we should take a page from Jesus.
Sam // May 28, 2007 at 5:14 pm |
James i know mark personally. Very personally. And for someone that knows him not at all cannot say his attitude or motives are wrong.
He got sobered up from a true stoner. He does not ride off sinners at all. The purpose of marks life is to teach the word of God in its full truth. Not water it down and use as an excuse for his sins.
If you read his blog again you will see that. Marks heart for sinners is very soft, and he burdens for them constantly in prayer. I saw him personally take a sinning kid that was raised in church with the wrong doctrinal beliefs, and with the wisdom of God, helped a 17 year old seek the kingdom of God with his whole life.
I say this not to lift him up. But to tell you his attitude is not writing of the sinners. You must read the blog again and find out what it says in its truth and not misinterpret what he says.
If mark wrote off sinners he wouldn’t have gone through what he went through with me or any of the other kids in my youth group.
-Sam-
Mary // May 28, 2007 at 5:20 pm |
James,
I understand what you are saying. But I think this is going around and around and you are missing the point.
In our day and age the gospel has been erroneously reduced to Jesus our friend, he loves us and is there to meet our needs. And that is transferred into the evangelism message.
I don’t think if you come across a gay or lesbian person who is honestly willing to listen to you, any of us here would say you are waisting your time.
Ofcourse, we would say go for it. Establish a relationship without compromising your standards.
However, to say Jesus is a friend of sinners really paints an incorrect picture of Him. Perhaps it would be better to say Jesus loved us enough inspite of ourselves.
How often do we paint the picture of God as wrathful against sin? How will someone trully be converted until they see the depth of their offense to God?
If they are dead in their sin-being blasphemers, liars, thieves, adulterers ect. is it fair to say to them, you are a friend to Jesus?
Mary // May 28, 2007 at 8:00 pm |
Sorry Sam, didn’t see your post. not much I had to say.
iseeitdifferently // May 28, 2007 at 10:08 pm |
Hey Sam, did you get that $100.00 check yet?
LOL…
…just don’t cash it till after the 8th.
Joking, joking…
mark jr.
Free Indeed // May 29, 2007 at 6:42 pm |
I enjoyed that post! In the 80’s we were taught to practice “friendship evangelism.” You were supposed to entertain (felt like seduce) people into liking you and then when they liked you enough they were supposed to become Christians. It really bothered me, but of course it didn’t work.
Friendship in the sense that we experience it with fellow believers or even Christ after we convert is on a level that we will never be able to have with an unbeliever–pre-christian whatever you want to call it.
Just like I can’t be “friends” the way I would like to with an “unbeliever,” neither can Christ. He is our ultimate example of what friendship is.
AP:
You say:
“Young people whose idea of “serving the Lord” is playing on a praise team until they get their break and become bonafide Christian rock stars, then they can minister in general terms for two minutes at the end of their hour long set.”
Sad to say, but you are right on about that. Unfortunately as adults I think we have created the problem by starting all this upfront performance singing etc. in front of the church when they are very young. So many kids are talented in that way, but what about the rest who really want to serve the Lord. there seems to be few genuine opportunities and I was thinking about this the other day and believe that we should get more creative in directing our kids at church into serving opportunities.
One of my kids isn’t musically talented at all (could be but was never interested), but she needs to be serving and will be heading up to an Indian Reserve for the entire summer to work in community programs. I am thrilled because serving is going to really fulfill her in Christ.
Sorry I’m off topic here but we’ve got lots of kids around here going to Bible college also, but coming out with silly degrees that are not employable, big egos, getting married young and living off mommy and daddy’s money. Sad.
I’ll shut up now!
God bless
americanpentecost // May 30, 2007 at 12:03 am |
Free Indeed:
I know what you mean. We have turned the whole thing into a circus really, and one that imitates the MTV culture to the best of our ability.
I was at a “relevant” church last year that I used to think was pretty cutting edge. We watched their multi-media presentation about a recent youth group trip. To my shock, they didn’t go feed the homeless, minister in the streets or anything useful. Instead the entire youth group went to New York to be on MTV’s TRL.
The youth need something more than what we are giving them today. But that is true of the entire church. I know of a place in South Dakota where you can buy an entire 3 bedroom house for $5,000 and minister to two reservations of Indians full time. But no one goes and no one cares and they are all dying. And no one goes because there is no money and no stardom, only the work done in obscurity. The very fact that they are lost doesn’t even enter into our minds, only our careers. It is the same with world missions.
We must be the change, us. We must do the work that needs done and exemplify the Christian life that we want the world to see.
Free Indeed // May 30, 2007 at 4:16 pm |
American Pentecost:
You’re so right. Sad that everyone wants to be upfront, sometimes even going on a mission trip means we’re doing someone else the favour of our presence and then we slip back into our “material world,” with our “fire insurance plan” gospel.
Six years ago one of my kids came down your way to Nevada to an Indian Reserve, she got whooping cough while there, no big deal, just messy, (she puked up everything for ages) but she was so blessed by the people there and her heart was broken for them and her life forever changed by being with these people.
I pray that we can get rid of the rock star hollywood mentality in christendom and get back to real service.
I’m off topic again, sorry Mark.
iseeitdifferently // May 30, 2007 at 6:00 pm |
It’s all good.
mark jr.
Jack // June 30, 2007 at 7:00 pm |
Hi enjoying the debate. Paul could say he would become all things to all people to win them for Christ. In particular living like a gentile, or Jew, or the weak in faith. This implies getting close to people or some sort of friendship. I accept that when you can down this line you have to be able to answer the question who is influencing who in a positive way. Jesus seemed comfortable near those whom others at his time seemed to struggle with, and Romans 5:8 talks of the love of God for sinners which I suspect we should reflect
Marcus French // July 9, 2007 at 1:44 pm |
You said:
“Matthew 11:19 says ’19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
… Now, did John the Baptist have a demon? We all know he didn’t. So then it is obvious that this statement is a slanderous remark to denegrate John …. So….did they all of a sudden tell the truth about Jesus? Were they right? Was Jesus a glutton and a drunkard? No, He wasn’t. So how does it follow that so many today in modern Evangelical Christianity so glibly say, “Jesus was a friend of sinners”? If the first two statements weren’t true, how do we suddenly turn and interpret that third statement about Him as suddenly being accurate?”
But look at Matthew 9:10-11:
Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?”
The Pharisees here are accusing him of eating with tax collectors and sinners, which he was. It seems to me that this would prove he hung out with tax collectors and sinners. And it would seem to me that the Pharisees were right in saying he was a friend of tax collectors and sinners in Matthew 11:19.
totaltransformation // July 9, 2007 at 3:14 pm |
“The Pharisees here are accusing him of eating with tax collectors and sinners, which he was. It seems to me that this would prove he hung out with tax collectors and sinners. And it would seem to me that the Pharisees were right in saying he was a friend of tax collectors and sinners in Matthew 11:19.”
He wasn’t “hanging out.” In the culture of the time these tax collectors were Jewish men who lived a rather luxurious lifestyle- but they were still Jewish men. These men were interested in Christ’s teachings and invited him into their homes to discuss God and religious matters. So to say he was “hanging out” is to miss what Christ was doing.
He was delivering the message of God to men and women who desired to hear it. He wasn’t kicking back and relaxing in the red light district.
mark jr. // July 10, 2007 at 12:17 am |
“He was delivering the message of God to men and women who desired to hear it. He wasn’t kicking back and relaxing in the red light district.”
That cracked me up….
…but yah, TT pretty much hit it on the head. Jesus lowered Himself, condescended even, to win them, but was by no means being “buddy buddy” with them. I’d go into this more, but I gotta get in da chower maing…
mark jr.
mark jr. // July 10, 2007 at 12:21 am |
One quick note;
I can’t remember the scripture verse off hand, but Jesus told the Pharisees why He did this. He said He came to call sinners to repentance and then something else about the sick needing a doctor.
I stinketh…gotta go…it’s hot and muggy in this here ‘ol South…
mark jr.
matthias // August 23, 2007 at 9:28 am |
This days i heard a sermon where it was mentioned that we have to become frinds of sinners. Inside of me i knew that statement wasent biblical, even i have heard it several times. Now reading this article my eyes become open and i want to put another scripture to it.
Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4,4
Thanks for your insight!
German brother Matthias
Matt // September 13, 2007 at 9:24 pm |
I find this so hard to balance, since we are not meant to be monks living alone with God until we finally die, but rather we ARE living in the world and we are to be with unbelievers and love them.
I spent the last 2 days with some friends in law(my girlfriends friend from CA) Unbelievers and although we share a lot of interests like we went surfing both days, good food, camped, etc. The conversation to me was boring as hell(pun intended) and my GF and I would pray alone that the time would be used for Him and not just sweep by us.
Honestly the more time I spend with God and in the word, the more boring and impossible it is for me to talk solely about other worldy things. “so what’s new?” takes on a new answer, “well God’s been doing this and telling me that” makes us sound like a loon in the eyes of the world, but I think the answer is genuine love for our unbelieving friends(as opposed to judgement). I’ll bet that if all the toddler and up Christians out there were to take a piece of paper and write, you could come up with at least 3 non Christians that the Lord specifically brought into your life.
This Saturday I have a dinner with such a couple. Why do they want to hang out with me? I am not that cool, and I must have the most archaic view of the world to the postmodern mind. I believe and hope it is because of the hope (Rom 5:1-2)I have and the presence of the Spirit that they can feel around me. I just pray that I don’t miss the Spirit’s roadsigns to direct me in what to say at the right time.
I hope I don’t waste time in my relationships, but follow the Spirit as close as I can.
David // October 16, 2007 at 8:13 pm |
“Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4,4″
What this verse is dealing with is not loving the world, that is, the system that has no room for God, not the people in the world. If we have no friends ‘in the world’ how will they ever know what a true follower of Jesus is like?
Some good discussion!
iseeitdifferently // October 16, 2007 at 8:52 pm |
David,
You’re right. I’m not at all advocating a removal of oneself from all “worldlings”, for lack of a better term. The apostle Paul said if we wanted to live that way then we may as well not be on earth. So this isn’t about some monastic kind of christian expression, but simply looking on the idea of wether or not Jesus can rightly be said to be a “friend” of sinners. He loves them, died for them, wants them for His inheritance and wasn’t afraid to rub elbows with them. That doesn’t constitute friendship in the true sense of that tight bond of souls. It’s “friendly”, it’s nice, polite and winsome and is a good way to reach out and bring the message to those who may hear it.
But if Jesus define’s friendship along lines of our obedience and servitude and along lines of His revealing the depths of God to us by the Holy Spirit (“No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.”) then we cannot say that the world is Jesus’ friend, nor He theirs. He said in John 15 that the world hates Him, and us consequently. So their is no friendship there.
Anyway, hope that clears up at least my view.
mark jr.
noogatiger // January 2, 2008 at 1:19 am |
Obviously the statement in Matthew was not totally made up from nothing now was it? Jesus did hang out with people whom the church establishment did not like. He did not hang around the pharisiacal rule-makers of the church. He obviously did associate with sinners, I mean his message was to them, right? He also obviously shared an adult beverage with them from time to time and made his own brand of Wine. You know, it seems that that Jesus was not judgmental like you guys are? Imagine that.
We know that there is no hell, and that was myth, so he didn’t come to condemn them to a place of eternal sadistic torture like the church has preached for almost 200 years. He came to give them eternal life it they wanted it. To save them from the grave. The wages of sin is death. He loved them, so it is natural that he hung around them.
In 2008, why don’t you guys actually try to be like Jesus. Hang out with some “sinners”. Really and go one step further, as Jesus did, try not to be judgmental. Have a glass of wine with them. Notice that they are people, pretty much like you and I. Accept people as they are. You will be surprised at how it frees your own spirit.
That is what I plan to do in 2008. To be more like the real Jesus. To hang out more with the sinners, to share a glass with them, to show that I am not the judge of them and stay away from the pharasees who judge everything by their standards.
noogatiger // January 2, 2008 at 1:21 am |
p.s. I meant: “like the church has preached for 2000 years.
mbaker // January 2, 2008 at 5:28 pm |
noogatiger,
‘We know that there is no hell, and that was myth, so he didn’t come to condemn them to a place of eternal sadistic torture like the church has preached for almost 200 years.”
Wow. Who have you been talking to? Jesus preached hell, and the book of Revelation is very specific about what will happen to those who do not become reconciled to God, through Christ. This is one sided picture of Jesus that you are advocating. He will judge the world, like it not. What exactly do you think He will do with those who choose to remain in unbelief and sin? Have a glass of wine with them?
Noogatiger // January 3, 2008 at 2:56 pm |
Rather than explain it myself, here is a link which spells it out pretty good:
http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html
Hell was an English word meaning, “to cover”, or “to place in a hole”, which was originally a decent translation for Hades and Sheol which both meant the grave. Even in Gehenna the fires were not eternal and things were butned up, they did not live eternally. Hell only came to mean eternal fire after the Catholic Church and Dante’s Inferno changed its meaning.
Our original scriptures do not contain the concept of eternal torment. The wages of sin is death, just like the Bible says in Genesis.
I know this may be new to you, but study it out for yourself. Our English bibles were corrupted by this doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Secondly, if Jesus could hang out with sinners, (not the really, really degenerate mean ones of course), and stayed away from the self-righteous rule makers then I could be less judgmental and do the same. Maybe we could show them a little love like Jesus did and then maybe they wouldn’t think we are the self-righteous ones.
mbaker // January 3, 2008 at 3:23 pm |
noogatiger,
I don’t want to get too far the subject of the post here. But here’s another link that you might want to read before you go preaching doctrine that is contrary to 2,000 years of biblical scholarship. But think about it , why would God create opposites of everything then neglect to have eternal punishment in opposition to eternal rewards? Here’s another view.
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
Noogatiger // January 3, 2008 at 4:25 pm |
Yep, read that one. I really don’t like his site, hard to read with all that color and bolding and underlining, he needs some help with site building.
Anyway, eternal torture for just a few years of unbeliefe seems pretty illogical to me. many times the Bible says the wages of sin is death. John 3:16 says that Jesus came to give us eternal life, now why would it say that if we already had eternal life, just depends on where?
I would hate to think that I was clinging to a doctrine added to our scriptures simply to scare the hell out of people, especially if Jesus never really taught it. Seriously, would it be a serious matter to you if someone deliberatly changed the scriptures original meaning? If so, you owe it to yourself to really investigate it for yourself don’t you?
Realizing that the word Hell itself was an English word and that even it did not originally mean eternal fire, but to cover up, that should cause some bells to go off in your head.
mbaker // January 3, 2008 at 4:36 pm |
Nooga,
I’ve heard it all before many times. I prefer to believe the evidence that God wouldn’t create eternal life and not an opposite. The rest of creation simply does not bear that theory out. The way that you posit it, it would never have been necessary for Jesus to come at all, and become a sacrifice for sin on the cross. Sinners would just…. well….die, as you and David Pack seem to believe. Sorry but that’s a contradiction of John 3:16 in itself.
Now, let’s get back to the subject of the post.
Noogatiger // January 3, 2008 at 6:46 pm |
You can choose to believe whatever you like, its a free will thing. I just don’t see how there not being a place of eternal torture is a contradiction of anything. To me it makes more sense that if God really is love and perfection and righteousness, so much so that he gave his life to give us eternal life, just like John 3:16 says, then the opposite of that is eternal death, not also eternal life but just burning and screaming in hell.
John 3:16 does say perish, not eternal life in hell. The opposite of eternal life would be death, wouldn’t it, not eternal life but just tortured forever. How does eternal death, not fit the crime. How does it not match the rest of creation, since basically everything else simply dies as well?
So why was it neccessary for Jesus to come, well to give us eternal life with him in heaven, just like he says. Now when we read that “the wages of sin is death”, we understand what that means. Now we really can view him more as a God of love rather than a God of rath and vengence and spite and hate and somebody who could watch people burn and scream in agony forever and not even have an ounce of pity for them. This is all just a false view of God, a heresay introduced by the Papacy, to scare the hell out of ignorant people and make them come into the church.
It is a shame that the lie continues to propigate.
God cannot be love, and torture people in flames forever. It is a contradiction of terms. If God trully does this he can’t be called just and righteous, sorry, but he can’t. Somebody with this much anger would need therapy sessions perhaps.
Bottom line is that this idea was simply not in our original scriptures. Ask any Jew if the concept of eternal Hell is in the Old Testament.
mark jr // January 3, 2008 at 7:39 pm |
“Ask any Jew if the concept of eternal Hell is in the Old Testament.”
I know many who will emphatically instruct you that you’re horribly wrong. I go to a church that’s got a Jewish scholar as one of our preachers (Dr. Michael L. Brown) and I’ve heard him speak on the subject many times.
There was another guy I heard preach for a while named Art Katz (he went to the eternal opposite of hell just recently). He taught it, believed it.
I know another Jewish guy named Bob Gladstone that teaches it. I know lotsa others Noog.
Fortunately God doesn’t bow to the preferences of man, so therefore it’s perfectly logical that perfect love perfectly hates perfect sinfulness and that if you live like a devil that you’ll go to the same place as them. They are eternal beings and so are we. Yes, body and soul are destroyed in hell….
…leaving only spirit. And is that less torturous to endure or worse? And who are you to talk back to God and tell Him what He can and cannot be like?
But again, I highly recommend you go find a jillion other blogs that actually are currently talking about he doctrine of hell. Just google “hell+blog” or something and then have fun.
I don’t dig all this sidetracking and junk, so dude…if I ever write on hell (and I have been wanting to for a while) you have a free and open invitation to come back and comment and dialogue on that blog and we’ll go for it.
Till then, don’t keep hijacking blogs and talking about off topic stuff. It just get’s old and I don’t have time for it Noog. I would give your blog the same respect, if you had one. Seriously, I would.
Alrighty then,
mark jr.
Noogatiger // January 4, 2008 at 3:54 pm |
Alrighty, then.
I still stand convinced that we have been teaching, preaching, and have swallowed a very horrible lie cooked up in the first century after Christ by the Papacy and the Catholic Church to do nothing but scare the hell out of poor ignorant people. It would be a shame if the love of God and the real message of Christ, (which was only love), has really been so corrupted, wouldn’t it?
To me this correction finally ties scriptures toghether, where it speaks of the wages of sin being death, and why speak of giving us eternal life by what Christ did, if we really already had it.
Alrighty then,
Noog
Hell: Myth or Reality, Temporary or Eternal? « Hand Me A Scalpel // January 5, 2008 at 7:53 pm |
[...] unchallenged by everyone. They challenged Him on Sabbath issues, washing hands before eating, his reasons for eating with sinners and other things related to oral Law and its nomenclature. So Noog, why [...]
Eddie // January 6, 2008 at 9:34 pm |
“It would be a shame if the love of God and the real message of Christ, (which was only love),”
Which was only love? Which Bible are you reading out of? Are you serious? There you go making these absolute statements again. And yes, you can make a statement in the form of a question.
Eddie // January 6, 2008 at 9:41 pm |
remember this quote from Tozer? (thanks to mbaker)
“Quasi Christians follow a quasi Christ. They want his help but not his interference. They will flatter him but not obey him.”
natrimony // January 7, 2008 at 1:56 am |
Hello everybody,
I just tracked over from S of J and thought I’d comment.
Noogatiger writes: “why don’t you guys actually try to be like Jesus.”
This is a common enough indictment and I think it is interesting that you pick a particular attribute (condescension) of Christ’s character to elevate. But, in order to truly be like Jesus, by that same token we should all accept worship, never assume responsibility for sinful behavior (Christ never did), and make emphatic claims of oneness with the Godhead. That should do for starters.
Dodging theological bullets by denouncing others as un-Christlike really devalues the credibility of your position.
noogatiger // January 10, 2008 at 2:05 am |
Remember this also.
Jesus did not leave us a gospel, or a testament or even a letter, nothing, nada.
The people who did write letters did so from 40 to 150 years after Christs death and this was recollected from memory of oral traditions.
It took nearly 200 years for the church to come to some sort of agreeement about which of these letters and writing would be accepted into the canon of scripture.
The real Jesus may not have ever intended to start a new church or create a new testament. His only real message was probably, stay away from the temple pharisees, love each other, don’t be judgmental of others and don’t be so self-righteous that you can’t associate with other humans.
Love you guys!!!!
Now lets have a cold one, thank you Jesus.
Corey // February 21, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
Wow….Honestly I think whoever posts this stuff needs to seriously get on with life. This really seems like a waste of time. God bless you I don’t mean to offend . . . I pray He does amazing things through you. You really have a passionate heart. That’s clear!
Now go and start praying His Kingdom to come.
Tim H // February 21, 2008 at 7:33 pm |
Corey,
Why would you make a statement like this “..Wow….Honestly I think whoever posts this stuff needs to seriously get on with life” when you are here also .
It would be recommended that if and when you get to these sites to read the about sections first. They normally will give you an indication of who these moderators are and why they have these sies in the first place.
How about we pray for the salvation of the lost souls, since He is the Kingdom, that has come and will return in bodily form one day soon.
iseeitdifferently // February 21, 2008 at 9:13 pm |
Uh yeah, Corey…
…didn’t you say not to judge on another post, with a scripture reference to boot?
Isn’t your statement that I need to ‘now’ pray His kingdom come a ‘judgment’ in your eyes that I’m not doing it now? Why tell me to do that then?
Isn’t it ‘judging’ to say I need to get on with my life, insinuating that I don’t have one? Isn’t that a judgment call?
Sounds like you need to follow your own advice, or don’t give silly remarks and then go against what you say should not be done.
mark jr.
Corey // February 21, 2008 at 10:39 pm |
I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have said you’re not praying for His Kingdom to come. That was an assumption. Like I said…I’m not here to offend.
BUT
I would take some time to really think and pray about what you’re posting.
Maybe talk to a few more pastors about it and see what they say. It’s not even so much what you’re saying but the way you’re saying it that comes off harsh. And some things we should be harsh with but others we shouldn’t.
SO…I don’t want to get in a huge debate
and I probably won’t be back so don’t bother replying.
God bless you.
Keep loving God and people.
iseeitdifferently // February 22, 2008 at 12:47 am |
Corey,
Read my “Offended” tab. It’s a recent tell all of the dealings of God regarding my attitude.
I have many times on this blog been required of God to apologize for the way I’ve said things. This blog has been a kind of sounding board for me and in the process has been a tool of shaping as well.
So I totally agree with you regarding how I have a tendency to say things, even to this day. But I do see it now and didn’t see it at all when I first began to do this for about the first year or so…
…but since you’re leaving and not coming back, you’ll most likely go away with a less than accurate assesment of me.
Have a good night man,
mark jr.
iseeitdifferently // February 22, 2008 at 12:48 am |
Oh, and by the way….you’re right to point out how I come across….but you may want to re-read your own comments and think about how they come across…of course it sounds like you kinda did, but in light of that you “might could” give some leverage, ya think?
mark jr.
Nautilus423 // February 27, 2008 at 8:46 pm |
How do you define someone a sinner? Everyone sins, you could rightfully call everyone a “sinner,” even people that actively seek after God, and try to follow Jesus’s commandments, etc. Exactly how much do you have to follow for Jesus to be your friend, in that case? Surely, I don’t always do what Christ would’ve done, no one here always does, does that mean we’re mere sinners, and not a friend of Jesus? We’re all equally sinners, we can’t count the good things we’ve done, and put ourselves much higher than anyone else. We fall so short of Holy, but Jesus’ Blood brings us all to that level. If Jesus isn’t a friend of sinners, than He’s no friend of any of us. We’re all sinners.
I don’t think being a friend would mean you approve of your friends decisions. When Jesus hung out with sinners, of course He didn’t approve of it. A doctor wouldn’t hang out with healthy people. But we’re all sick in that sense, some maybe more severe. But just how sick do you have to be for Jesus not to be your friend?
iseeitdifferently // February 27, 2008 at 11:32 pm |
You’re not too far from what I think about all this.
My main beef is a liberal stance that allows one to hang out at bars and drink and eat just to “kick it with sinners like Jesus did”.
He very plainly said that he came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. So He wasn’t just being ‘buddy-buddy’, He had a purpose.
One thing most folks won’t do is engage the scriptures I used to show Jesus’ own definition of His friends. That is the pivotal key to understanding all this.
Gotta get into family bible time.
mark jr.
Nautilus423 // February 28, 2008 at 3:20 am |
Oh, I gotcha. Perhaps I misunderstood. I would say though, in most senses of the word, Jesus did act a friend to the sinners. Obviously a lot that happened wasn’t recorded (not in the Canonical Gospels at least) but Jesus helped the sinners, healed them, and taught them. That would constitute as being a friend, I think.
Nautilus423 // February 28, 2008 at 3:22 am |
But yeah, not the kind of friend to be the designated driver so you can go out drinking all night. Perhaps the friend that would hold your hair back as you vomit in the toilet, though. If that made any sense.
Brandon // February 28, 2008 at 6:02 am |
I have a shirt that says “SINNER” and then in small red letters it says “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of which i am the worst, 1 timothy 1:15
I wear it and people at my high school come up to me, like “Awesome shirt, let me read it.. ohhhhh….”
LOL!!!
They read SINNER and are like “RIGHT ON” and then read “CHRIST JESUS” and are like “awww man…”
lol….
I kinda wasn’t sure about wearing it at first (i didn’t buy it, Christmas) but i have been lately… and heheh… it’s definitely interesting, and i guess it’s true…
Matt, I’m a sinner, you should come surf with ME sometime, GOSH!
venson // May 1, 2008 at 8:00 am |
I Think that if we as Christians would just associate ourselves with the people Jesus associated Himself with, and dis-associate ourselves from those whom He dis-associated Himself with, Love those He loved, and rebuke those He rebuked, and do what He did, we would be fine…. But we can’t have pimps, whores,embezzlers,liars,gangsters,etc.. in the church!?!? do we?
venson // May 1, 2008 at 8:03 am |
or can we?
iseeitdifferently // May 1, 2008 at 9:28 am |
That isn’t the point of the post.
However, the church was never designed to be a “place” anyhow. It is an organic thing, a living thing and if you’re dead in sin it is not possible to be in it. So technically no, those folks cannot “be” pimps, gangsters and such and “be” in the church. The regenerated life puts to death the misdeads of the flesh and the mind set on death (sin).
That’s not my rule, it’s just how it is.
Now, can they come to the building we go to? I don’t care, c’mon in. But the church is not supposed to try and get the world in it, but the gospel out to the world and THEN they come in. But hey, if they end up half drunk on a Sunday and stumble into the church I go to, it’s all good, we want you there. You won’t stay that way long….or you’ll leave, but not because we made you feel funny.
mark jr.
lbolm // May 1, 2008 at 4:13 pm |
Mark wrote,
“However, the church was never designed to be a “place” anyhow. It is an organic thing, a living thing and if you’re dead in sin it is not possible to be in it. ”
AMEN and AMEN !!
It, the Church , is who we are, not where we go!!
As one of the guys I talk with from time to time says, we are a “verb”.
Mark, keep me in your prayers Brother. This Saturday we will start have our regular services in a regular place. God has finally opened the doors here in Blackville for His people to Worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH !!!!
Bless you and your family,
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
Rooivalk // August 10, 2008 at 10:03 pm |
Mark, thanks. This thing about Jesus being the sinner’s Friend, is constantly used to negate another verse:
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
(KJV)
Jesus’ words. And maybe it is just me, but it seems that He wishes His “friends” to break with the World, including friendship with sinners. There is a difference between “hanging out with the crowd” and evangelising.
Rooivalk // August 10, 2008 at 10:05 pm |
But I always keep in mind, that Matthew 23 is directed at the “church leaders…”
Paul // August 22, 2008 at 2:31 am |
What you wrote definitely has logic in it… But all I want to ask is
Is Jesus your friend? if you say yes, then my next question is, Are you a sinner? If you say no, then I don’t have to say anything, but if you say yes and still call Jesus your friend, doesn’t it follow that Jesus is the friend of sinners (emphasis on ‘the’)? All people in the world are sinners, including christians, christians are different because they love Jesus, yet as long as they are in this earthly body they are prone to sin. Its only the spirit which empowers them to fight against sin. And yet don’t we fail? Doesn’t Jesus still love us in spite of our weaknesses?
And I just want to make one more point that Terming Jesus the friend of sinners is not a modern charismatic movement. The charismatic movement just says that Jesus is to be looked upon only as a friend. I don’t think many people in the charismatic movement would be humble enough to admit the fact that they are sinners (at least after they were saved). Look at Paul, he said he was the chief of sinners(and used it in the present tense “of whom I AM chief” not “was chief”). Christians down through the ages all called themselves the vilest of sinners in spite of being saved.. Why? Its because when one comes to the real presence of God, the first thing which he notices is that he is a sinner and not worthy to stand before God. That always happens, if you read the Old Testament, you can see many instances.
So when we are conscious that we are sinners and yet God accepts us and cleanses us, we feel thankful that in spite of our weaknesses, God still loves us. The hymn Jesus what a friend for sinners was termed with this view in mind.
Eric // December 8, 2008 at 11:05 am |
actually..there is a verse that says:
there is more rejoice in heaven for one sinner who repents than 99 that doesnt need repentence!
iseeitdifferently // December 9, 2008 at 10:45 am |
Eric, read it again.
You completely missed the entire point of the post. This isn’t about that, as I have already said. It is about the church carnalizing Jesus to make Him everyone’s “homeboy” or using these verses to excuse drinking in bars “for Jesus”.
He’ll save a sinner, but He only called His disciples friends and that was conditioned upon obedience. Throwing out a random verse that is off topic does not thwart the entire thrust of scripture on this point.
Vern Hyndman // February 5, 2009 at 8:46 pm |
I think I agree with some of the minor aspects of your original post… that Christ doesn’t wink and at the destruction of sin.
I do differ, though, on your premise that the motivation of those who criticized Christ were doing so completely out of malice… I believe that those who were critcizing Christ lived by almost impossible standards, and that Christ rejected those standards with prejudice. Christ insisted that the rules of the Pharisees wouldn’t save them, a proposition THEY rejected.
Folks who believe that the law will save them, and who have invested large aspects of their lives TO the law, are not overjoyed when Christ walks by and points out that their investment was worse than a complete waste. That it is Christ alone who will save them.
I think that mining a specific passage for deep meaning has value, but I think that the your example of mining this scripture for deeper meaning shows how far off we can get when we consider one bit of scripture outside the context of the whole of scripture.
Jesus was HARD on the folks who were hard on sinners, who INCREASED the burdens of the sinner instead of helping them. I cannot think of ONE passage in scripture where Christ HAMMERS on a sinner… the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, even the subjects of His many stories… the hero was always the sinner, the the moron was always the religious guy. Take, for instance, the parable of the Good Samaritan… a sinner with bad theology is the hero, and the religious folks the buffoons.
Given the entirety of the life story of Christ, I don’t think a reasonable case can be made that Christ was not a friend of sinners.
I believe Christ saw sin as OPPRESSION, that He saw leaving sin as freedom, and that He came to set the captives free. No dislike there IMO.
-vern-
Vern Hyndman // February 5, 2009 at 9:50 pm |
Also, not to hog your blog… but also from Chapter 11… in the Message paraphrase…
25. Abruptly Jesus broke into prayer: “Thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. You’ve concealed your ways from sophisticates and know-it-alls, but spelled them out clearly to ordinary people. 26. Yes, Father, that’s the way you like to work.”
and earlier in the chapter,
15. “Are you listening to me? Really listening?
16. “How can I account for this generation? The people have been like spoiled children whining to their parents, 17. ‘We wanted to skip rope, and you were always too tired; we wanted to talk, but you were always too busy.’
18. John came fasting and they called him crazy.
19. I came feasting and they called me a lush, a friend of the riff-raff. Opinion polls don’t count for much, do they? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”
20. Next Jesus let fly on the cities where he had worked the hardest but whose people had responded the least, shrugging their shoulders and going their own way.
21. “Doom to you, Chorazin! Doom, Bethsaida! If Tyre and Sidon had seen half of the powerful miracles you have seen, they would have been on their knees in a minute.
I’m thinking that the ordinary people think He loves them.
I think that Jesus DID hang out in bars, in the social gatherings that found people drinking alcohol together, and I think He made some of the best hooch any of them had ever tasted. And He made it when people were half in the bag already, in large quantities, and in the very ceremonial containers that the religious folks used ceremonially.
I take this to be like Jesus, crashing the party in a town, and making high test wine in the baptismal of the local tee totaling Baptist church.
Jesus was not only a friend to the sinner, but he pissed the religious folk off to no end… if it weren’t for the sinners, He’s have had no friends.
As Manning reminds us, “Jesus did not die at the hands of muggers, rapists or thugs, Jesus fell into the well scrubbed hands of deeply religious people, society’s most respected members.”
-vern-
iseeitdifferently // February 5, 2009 at 11:53 pm |
Thanks for stopping by…and completely missing the point. This wasn’t about mining a verse; it was about correcting a wrong idea.
Word up.
mark jr.
Vern Hyndman // February 6, 2009 at 1:02 am |
OK… I’m not sure where I took a left and missed the point… I guess what I heard you say based on having mined this chapter and verse, was that Jesus was not the friend of sinners. I’m suggesting that a wider view of the life of Christ is not compatible in any way with your assertion that Christ is not the friend of sinners. Still missing the point?
Vern Hyndman // February 6, 2009 at 1:23 am |
Hmmm… after reading
“You completely missed the entire point of the post. This isn’t about that, as I have already said. It is about the church carnalizing Jesus to make Him everyone’s “homeboy” or using these verses to excuse drinking in bars “for Jesus”.”
How could one ever find scripture that would suggest that drinking in bars for Jesus is remotely wrong? We’d look just like Jesus at Canna.
We’re to be salt and light, “in but not of” the world… these ideas reflect that it is the attitude of our heart that defines us as Christ followers. There will be folks who follow Christ whom Christ will keep far from bars or alcohol… and there will be others who will be salt and light to the bar. It is about where we’re seeking life.
We have a really helpful men’s night out at our church, called “Beer and God Night”, where we provide a really tasty microbrew for folks… we’re friends, even when they are not yet certain that Jesus even exists, let alone whether they LIKE Him.
We are called to be the conduit of love and grace from Christ to the world, because that is what He modeled for us in His ministry.
So where are the stories in the Bible where Jesus reminds the sinners that He isn’t their homeboy, and that they’re not welcome? I can think of a number of time where He does that to the religious folk, and maybe one could stretch that to include the Rich Young Ruler… but he walked away from what I remember, he was not sent away.
iseeitdifferently // February 8, 2009 at 2:47 am |
I didn’t mine one passage, especially the one in question. I actually paid far more attention to Jesus’ own words (conveniently being ignored presently) in which He clearly laid down His definition of friendship with Him. If you missed that, then I just can’t help you man. It’s like, “if you have to ask, you’ll never know” kinda thing.
Jesus told His disciples that the world HATED Him because He testified that what it did was evil and that they should expect the same. This is quite anti-thetical to “homeboy-ness”. There is a great difference between “going for souls and going for the worst” and calling them your friend before they repent and turn to Christ. Nice, polite….yes. He only called one group of people His friends and He waited 3 years to say it. Read the passages. It’s not complicated.
I gotta go to sleep.
G’night…
iseeitdifferently // February 8, 2009 at 2:48 am |
BTW, John 14 is where you want to look for Jesus’ definition of friendship with Him. Don’t define it for yourself, let Him do it.
Advocate4Good // June 16, 2009 at 2:32 pm |
My dear sir:
I take acceptation by your outlandish remark where “modern Evangelical Christianity so glibly say, “Jesus was a friend of sinners”?” I’ve never heard anything more absurd!
In hopes that you might give Evangelical Christians more credit then you do, consider this, eating and drinking; living as did other people. They say, Behold a man gluttonous; they found fault with both, and rejected both, like fickle, capricious children, whom nothing could please. Wisdom is justified of her children; right and wise ways, like those which John and the Saviour pursued, will be approved by the spiritually wise and good.
Advocate4Good
mark jr. // June 17, 2009 at 11:21 pm |
You obviously didn’t read very well what I wrote, nor the plethora of follow up comments where I clarified many other objections.
Thanks for stopping by.
mark jr.