Hand Me A Scalpel

“The” Prophetic…

October 8, 2007 · 63 Comments

Ever hear this phrase? We all understand it to mean that someone operates in “the” prophetic, or some gifting of that kind.

Soooo….what’s a prophetic and why is it called a “the”? It’s like a noun or something now. It’s an item, a thing. It’s spoken of as something to get in your possesion and use as you wish, when you wish, however you wish. It’s become a thing to be possessed or a tool that is wielded.

I’d like to suggest that you never once find the phrase the prophetic in the bible because it isn’t a “the”.

Ask yourself this: haven’t we turned a way of life and speaking into something that is now an impersonal force, like from Star Wars? It’s something that just is and we need only avail ourselves to this mysterious thing called “The Prophetic”. Sort of like saying, “May the force be with you; May the prophetic be released”. What’s the difference?

So what is prophetic? I’ll try as best I can to sum it up.

The base of the word means literally “forth speak”, or to speak out the word of God as it is given and made known. But what kind of man (and the occasional woman) is it revealed to? What elements make up the character of the man, what’s his background, his life, his history with God? What hardships, sufferings and such have gone into making him the kind of man who confidentley knows that he’s heard from God and can confidentley speak what he has received in the secret council of God? I’d like to tie a thread through all the prophets as their many situations come to mind. I’ll not name them by name but only their hardships. These things are part and parcel of what makes a man/woman a truly prophetic one.

They leave comfortable lives and locations to go to places they know not of. They are imprisoned and falsely accused. They are betrayed by family members. They go about in goat and camel skin garments. They live only on daily provisions as they come, with no stores built up to rely on. They are fearless in the face of kings who hate them. They expose publicly the fraudulence of their prophetic contemporaries and that of the priesthood. They are hated by the popular and elite who claim to be right with God. They hate sin. They preach against it openly and leave no wiggle room. They have the word REPENTANCE branded on their souls and can speak no other thing when it’s time. They live in caves, they wander as nomads, they sleep with one eye open and grieve over the sleepyness of God’s people. They tell pagan kings to repent, though such a word might cost them their lives. They have an acute sense of their own sinfulness that they carry about with them. They feel the most unworthy and the most unqualified….oddly enough this is exactly what qualifies them. They finish the half done jobs of backsliden kings by hacking in pieces those who should have been killed by the King (like many pastors today). They don’t see the performance of biblical things as good enough when they know that the collective heart of the people is away from God and that what they perform is but a dead religious function that angers God. And when they see this they blow the whistle, and that publicly and aren’t afraid to name names. As a result they are put on a “list” of those deemed unfit to live.
The world is not worthy of such. They live with eternity as their number one and in most cases their only consideration in life on earth.

It is because of things like this and much more that such a one as this can be trusted with the very oracles of God. This man is broken down and knows that if God will not give His Life to him that he’ll have no life, no utterance, no sustenance, no-thing in this world worth having. This man will have the right to speak words of comfort and blessing because he has born the disgrace and reproach of having borne the unsavory word(s).

So there’s a prophet, in a very, very small nutshell.

So I have to ask myself, “do they walk in the prophetic or do they walk with God in obedience and in the fellowship of His sufferings and demonstrate prophetic reality, which is God’s way of seeing what is unseen?”. I believe it is the latter.
Prophets weren’t men who walked in “the prophetic”. They were men who walked with God and could be trusted with “forth speaking” His thoughts. They didn’t use the prophetic, they were used by God and what came forth was prophetic.
The Prophetic wasn’t a tool used by them, they were tools used by God. I believe that this distinction is muddied due to the new age influences that have come to us over the last few decades through so-called prophets and psuedo-apostles. That’s why we take pagan ideas into things like this. And maybe it’s not so overtly pagan. It’s simply our American utilitarian way of percieving life. The pagan world, however, views the spirit world and spirits themselves as being available for our benefit and we need only “tap into it” to use it. This idea then colors our christian thinking by tricking us into viewing God the same way. For the sake of our discussion here we’ll limit it to how we view prophetic reality and prophetic men and speaking. It becomes a force that is like a moving stream that one need only tune in to, sort of tune their “consciousness” to get into the prophetic “vibe”.
In essence, it becomes a the.

This is where certain schools of minstry get their ideas for so-called prophetic training. (See this article for a deeper analysis of quasi prophetic guessing games)
No longer is holiness and devouring the Word the primary means of developing a prophetic character. No, you just guess whatever pops into your head after tuning yourself into “the” prophetic. This is no different than the New Age approach to the Force, or Stream of Consciousness. It ultimately sidesteps true propheticness and creates prophecy slot machines.

Well, this is short but that gets this off my chest. It’s been bugging me for a while. I may add to it later or something.

So what do you guys think? Similar experiences, thoughts….what?

mark jr.

Categories: Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry · Charismatic Issues · Christian Living · Doctrine · Faith · Revival · Spirit Led Living · Things Prophetic · Unparticular Particularities

63 responses so far ↓

  • Mary // October 8, 2007 at 1:02 am | Reply

    So Mark,
    If you think someone is or might be prophetic and they are abusing their calling to teach false things what do you do?
    How do you correct someone who says thus saith the Lord when you know they are teaching false things. ie a female I know. No one will listen to you because they are dazzled by the gift?

  • jakestimp // October 8, 2007 at 6:57 pm | Reply

    Hey, thanks for checking out my old blog post about Bethel Church. I enjoyed what you wrote here, and I give a hearty “Amen!” I also read your About section and I think you and I agree on a lot of things, though you may take a stronger anti-Charismatic stance than I do. I’m very strongly pro-Charismatic, but I’m equally strongly anti-charismania. I love all the power of God to heal the sick, cast out demons, prophesy, etc., but I don’t like when people do it all from the flesh or for show.

    I agree with your view that “the prophetic” is unbiblical, but I do have a few arguments to bring to the mix.

    Just because many “prophetic” ministers in the church today are in sin or doing things out of selfish reasons does not mean that there are not ones who are operating as God intended. I have met many men of God from Africa and Latin America (as well as in America) who are truly living like the Old Testament prophets, preaching truth and not giving in to sensationalism.

    Keep in mind, too, that even prophets in the Bible made mistakes: Jeremiah constantly wined, Moses had an anger problem, John the Baptist doubted whether Jesus was the Messiah later in life. Prophets, like all people, are still people.

    I’m not sure, but you also seem to be confusing the idea of Biblical prophets and people who prophesy. In the Bible, you’ve got people that are described as “prophets.” This would be Isaiah, Zephaniah, Haggai, Daniel, Agabus, and many others. Then there are just people who prophesy but are not called “prophets.” This would be King Saul, who prophesied after being annointed King. Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist, who prophesied about Jesus, would also match this description. Simeon, who prophesied over the infant Jesus at the Temple, also is never called a prophet, yet he prophesied. Philip the Evangelist had four daughters who prophesied, but they are never referred to as prophetesses.

    I would disagree on your limited, stereotypical look at who prophets are. It’s just not Biblical. Jesus, a prophet (in addition to being God), ate and drank with sinners, had a home, and turned water into wine. Isaiah seems to have been relatively well-received by people. Anna, called a prophetess, never left the Temple and only prophesied good things as far as we know.

    In Acts 2, at Pentecost, Peter said Joel 2:28-29 was being fulfilled, in which God promised that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on all flesh and all sorts of people would prophesy, have dreams, and see visions from God. I believe that this is still happening today. God is allowing all sorts of people to prophesy, not just those who live in caves and eat locusts. There are all sorts of prophets, and all sorts of people who prophesy but are not necessarily prophets.

    I would also disagree that only prophets are called to act as you describe. I would say that a radical lifestyle of devotion to God above all else is the calling of every Christian, not just the “prophets.”

    I enjoyed your post very much and I’ll definitely check back from time to time!

  • iseeitdifferently // October 9, 2007 at 12:02 am | Reply

    I have no idea what Bethel post you’re talking about. I went to your blog and couldn’t find anything. Did you write something previously on my blog under a different name?
    But on another note…

    Dude, I don’t think you read very clearly. That’s not meant as a slam, I just don’t know how you got what you got from what I wrote.

    I didn’t say that only prophets are called to act in the ways described. I said from the get go that it was a very, very limited description. I think I called it a nutshell, not by any means exhaustive. You missed me on that dude.

    Limited, stereotypical view of prophets? Every description I gave has a name and a life attatched to it. I didn’t give names and verses because I was trying to keep it short and if you read other posts of mine you’ll know I have a pretty solid grasp the bible. I don’t spout off stuff if I don’t already know where to find it in the bible. So you may want to dig through the word on that one man. Oh, and listen to a healthy dose of Leonard Ravenhill’s preaching on what prophets are and how they lived. It’s not stereotype, it’s architype. These men existed and lived and spoke this way. These things are part and parcel of what God did in their lives to make them the men they were.

    I’m ultra aware of the difference between the office and the gift of prophecy. I’ve talked about that a bit as well. No confusion in my mind on that note.

    This post wasn’t about wether prophets make mistakes. That actually has nothing to do with any of what I wrote about. I’m talking about a perception of something rather than its function. I have a link to Art Katz’s thoughts on the prophetic man. I’ve simply not heard a better handling of the subject than this man which is why I plug his ministry so shamelessly. Sorry, can’t help it.

    I’m not anti charisma. I go to FIRE church in NC. It doesn’t get much more charismatic than that. But these are doing real prophetic work and true apostolic sending of souls into the world with real results. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no cessasionist. Read up a little more around here and you’ll get a better feel for my theological disposition on these matters. I know the power still flows…
    …we’re about to have our annual missions conference at FIRE church and I’m looking forward to hearing the testimonies of what God is doing around the world.

    So I’d suggest you read up a little more around here and read slower. Once again that isn’t a slam, I mean no offence, I simply mean to perhaps help you avoid misreading me in the future so that I don’t have to spend as much time clarifying things that I believe are already pretty clear.

    Have a good night my friend,
    mark jr.

  • JC Smith // October 9, 2007 at 12:42 am | Reply

    I operate in the evangelism and the repentance as well. Sometimes I operate in the prophetic but usually in connection with the evangelism and the repentance.

    I usually don’t get along with the prophetic due to my failure to squeeze out the kinds of words that God is speaking through these powerful prophets. You see, in the prophetic you get little gems like this powerful word by Joni Ames this week :

    STREET SENSE: On May 5th of this year, a horse by the name of “Street Sense” won the Kentucky Derby. In this, the Lord said that He is bringing forth the “Sons of Thunder” anointing through those who have had “street sense” and have been as wild horses in the streets. Some would frown upon them and disregard them, but the Lord says that they are HIS prized ones, brought forth for such a time as this!

    RAGS TO RICHES: On June 9th of this year, the first filly (female horse) in 102 years, won the Belmont Stakes horse race and was a lady named “Rags to Riches.” Through that, I felt the Lord saying that it was a sign that He is bringing forth many women as female “Josephs” and “Daniels” to carry Kingdom Finances in this time as well. They will start businesses, bring forth inventions and even hold positions of authority in government that have not been held by women since the days of Queen Charlotte.

    PRAYER: Father, we thank You that You are taking us into new depths in Your Ezekiel 47 river. We also thank You that You are training us to be as adept (or more so) than the royal lipizzan horses! Lord, so much so that the very nudge of Your knee or Your glance in our direction, will cause us to understand what You want us to do and we will do it. We are Yours, Lord. Have Your way in and through us! In Jesus’ name, Amen.

  • Samuel // October 9, 2007 at 1:50 am | Reply

    Jakestimp,

    Hey this is Samuel. I left a comment on your blog, suggesting this blog to you. I’m not sure if you are getting me confused with iseeitdifferently, cause I left that comment.

    So, I just suggest that you read marks about me thing, and just read some more around here, to find out what he believes.

    God Bless.

    P.S. Go to sermonindex.net and soak up leonard Ravenhill.

    Word

    -Samuel-

  • Bill // October 9, 2007 at 4:23 am | Reply

    >Jesus, a prophet (in addition to being God)

    Come on man, listen to yourself. Jesus was a prophet in addition to being God?

  • bereanonthewall // October 9, 2007 at 4:54 am | Reply

    Mark Jr,

    I dont think I could shout a louder AMEN to this!!

    I have been reading Ezekiel and I noticed that I seriously wouldnt want to be the guy to be breaking the news to Israel that “Yeah guys, you’re toast, except for a teeny few of you… oh, and there’s no way to stop it.”

    Im not sure that would win a lot of popularity contests.

    And the things God had him do such as laying on one side for a year and his other side for half a year, and then cooking his bread over poop— originally supposed to be human poop, but God changed it to cow poop *mmm even better…*And all of it was to symbolize the gross iniquities of Israel.

    You never see this in ‘the prophetic’.

    Its a ‘we’re so amazingly great’ festival.

    The part you said about guessing that whatever comes to mind is from God when you ‘tune into the prophetic’— wow, that was all over the group I was in.

    Some people got the ‘mantles’ or ‘anointings’ of Disney Characters! There was no end to not only the craziness, but the worldly sense in which they came out of. And it was justified by “God uses the things that we would understand in our day and age.”

    Thanks again Mark Jr :) Great post!

  • cheryl // October 9, 2007 at 2:23 pm | Reply

    Hey Mary

    I know who you are inquiring about. I, at one time also questioned this same person and you hotly defended her. I really did not want to be considered as someone who was bringing division to the body of Christ so I gave it into God’s hands and asked forgiveness for my attitude, which was argumentative.

    I think you are belaboring your point with this woman. Prayer. Take it to the Lord. You said all that you can say. IF she is at all sensitive to the Holy Ghost, she will see any error that she is in. Maybe not today, but eventually.
    God Bless.

  • cheryl // October 9, 2007 at 2:39 pm | Reply

    PS Excellent post. Thank you.

  • Bill // October 9, 2007 at 4:53 pm | Reply

    >So Mark, If you think someone is or might be prophetic and they are abusing their calling to teach false things what do you do?

    Mary,

    If God has sent them “strong delusion” would you want to try to fix it? Or pray against it?

    Just run and don’t look back.

    Remember Lot’s wife.

    -Bill

  • Bill // October 9, 2007 at 5:01 pm | Reply

    Mark,

    I think many talk about themselves “moving in the prophetic” because its a way of saying “I’m a prophet” without actually saying it. Which, of course skirts the whole office/gifting issue.

    Its kind of a false humility thing, and also avoids the frequent stonings when one is wrong.

    But you are right- “the prophetic” has become some sort of new age voodoo thing.

    I’ll be teaching the young adults tonight. I do not long for any new revelation. But how I desire to speak a word in due season- to teach scriptures that speak to the heart of the matter.

    Which, BTW, is pretty much what I’ll be addressing tonight- circumcision of the heart.

  • SadParent // October 9, 2007 at 6:35 pm | Reply

    Something very sad going on to God’s church…

    What ever happened to black and white? Everything has been popping up gray for the last several years….

  • Rob // October 9, 2007 at 8:40 pm | Reply

    Mark,

    Thanks for the post. Thoughtful.

    -r

  • Bill // October 9, 2007 at 8:49 pm | Reply

    >What ever happened to black and white? Everything has been popping up gray for the last several years….

    Sp,

    that’s what happens when the Word is relegated to the back of the bus. What we “sense” and what we “feel” becomes more real than the absolutes of the Word of God.

    Which is funny, when the person truly moving in the prophetic true prophet still deals in black and white.

    Take heart- the true church is not necessarily going in that direction. As important as those in the “prophetic church” deem themselves, most of Christianity would not even recognize thier names. For those of us personally touched abused by this movement, it is easy to become discouraged.

    Let God be true and every man a liar

  • iseeitdifferently // October 9, 2007 at 9:43 pm | Reply

    James, that was hilarious!!
    Good show old man!

    Yeah, just for the record again, I believe in words spoken from God to people to be spoken to people. Absolutely.
    I just don’t like the way this thing has been turned into an impersonal force.

    I eagerly desire the gifts, I really do. That’s not lip service either, I mean I burn for it.
    In fact the Greek word for desire in 1 Cor. 14:1 means “covet”. Its root word means “to be hot enough to boil water or melt metal or cause it to glow”. I got that out of my good ‘ol Strongs way back in the day. And indeed, sometimes my whole being burns for it.

    I signed up with a couple minstry teams at my church and am eager to get out and work in God’s fields and see His gifts in operation for His glory. During the winter my job will afford me more time for this and I plan on leaving and going somewhere else to accomodate what I believe the Lord is finally bringing me into.
    Oh, if you’re wondering, it’s prison ministry and prophetic evangelism. No no no, not “that kind” of prophetic evangelism. The kind that speaks out on sin to the world in public forums. Our church is in the face of local councils and even our government. Prophets spoke to kings and priests in Old Testament times and it’s time for this to be a part of true prophetic practise again.

    So pray for me, “I’m goin’ in!”.

    mark jr.

  • Mary // October 9, 2007 at 9:43 pm | Reply

    Cheryl,
    Yes, I did disagree with you about her prophetic gifting. I still believe she has a prophetic gifting.
    You didn’t have to “give in” unless you were convinced you were in the wrong for saying what you said. Division is bad unless you are fighting against something that is clearly antibiblical.

    Cheryl, don’t change your mind unless God proves to you in scripture you are wrong!! You may have been right about her all along…I don’t know for sure about her. PLEASE! Go by what your inner discernment and the word says.

    That is why I think she has the power to manipulate because I think she has a true prophetic gift (I could be wrong) thus the STRONG personality quality. And the sense that she is accountable to no one but God alone. Who can contend with that?

    Yes I am beating a dead horse on her blog and have said all I can say and leave it at that. You are right-prayer is best. Thanks for reminding me and helping me feel better about it!!

    Bill, thanks for that.

  • Mary // October 9, 2007 at 9:45 pm | Reply

    oopps,
    I meant division is good if you are fighting against something that is clearly antibiblical.

  • Mary // October 9, 2007 at 9:54 pm | Reply

    lolrotflol !!!

    James that prophetic message was too funny!!
    Thanks for brightening up my day.

  • jakestimp // October 10, 2007 at 1:22 am | Reply

    Thanks for the response to my post, iseeitdifferently. Sorry for the identity confusion earlier. I thought you had posted on my page, but I guess it was somebody else.

    Anyway, yeah, you’re right, I totally misread some things you wrote. Thanks for taking the time to clarify and I promise I’ll actually read what you write next time.

    Likewise, I think you misunderstood me on a few points I made, but I don’t want to argue it out here in your comments section. Just wanted to say sorry for the confusion and thanks for clarifying.

  • Mary // October 10, 2007 at 5:03 am | Reply

    Bill er I meant thanks ALF.

  • Paul // October 10, 2007 at 9:06 am | Reply

    yo mark boy hows it goin? still mad at me? anyways i was just sittin here and suddenly though, i wonder what mark’s been up to? so i typed in your name to good ol google and there you was. (yes i still have the lake county accent) when i saw your pic just about had a heart attack because i totally didnt think it was you. anyway, just thought i’d leave this comment to uh…brighten your day? take care man, and if you ever wanna talk u know where to reach me…i think..well if not its (nicely hidden by mark jr. so Paul doesn’t get spammed to death) god bless man

  • Samuel // October 10, 2007 at 4:36 pm | Reply

    dude paul….

    Mark Loves you and so do i

    Read marks stuff Boy

  • mbaker // October 10, 2007 at 11:59 pm | Reply

    Mark,

    Thanks for bringing up the difference in “the” prophetic and true prophets of God.

    About prison ministry. I was in it for a while with the prisoners in our county jail. Here I am, getting to be a little old lady, and certainly not really wanting to be there, but went there because one of the kids I knew in town was there, and asked me to come, and he knew I would speak straight from the shoulder. Now those guys tested me mightily, and asked some very difficult questions, but I stuck to the truth of God. I did not mince words either. Five of them came to the Lord during that six months, not because of me but because GOD’S truth won out over what they had been taught. Blessings to you in this new ministry. Do not hestitate to call them when they test you. They respect you more that way. And the surprising thing is they are hungry to hear how they can live differently than they have in the criminal lifestyle.

    Sorry, didn’t mean to get off the subject of the post.

  • iseeitdifferently // October 11, 2007 at 12:00 am | Reply

    Jake,
    It’s all good.
    Ay Paul, don’t post your email publicly, dork.

    mark jr.

  • iseeitdifferently // October 11, 2007 at 1:19 am | Reply

    Mbaker,
    Off subject is always welcome when it edifies!

    And you’ve earned the right to say whatever you want around these parts…

    mark jr.

  • Mary // October 11, 2007 at 2:52 pm | Reply

    mbaker,
    I can picture that so clearly, you walking into that prison. You do have a way with words. Some tough young guys – no match for a little lady sent by God.

    Bless You.

  • jarrod // October 12, 2007 at 12:18 am | Reply

    that was an exellent post. especially the star wars analogy. it is all to often that i end up being a sith to my brethren because in the words of obi wan “only a sith deals in absolutes” so you go you dark lord of the prophetic. makes me wanna say judge us by our size do you? and well you should not. for the Christ is our ally. and a powerful ally He is. yeah i know i have turned to the dorkside. peace

  • SadParent // October 12, 2007 at 5:32 pm | Reply

    Jake wrote: Need I remind those of you that are critical of prophets that just because something doesn’t happen in our lifetime doesn’t mean that it won’t come to be. Truly there were those that laughed and mocked even Elijah for his prophecy of the coming messiah, after all it certainly didn’t happen in his lifetime. Also, the prophecy of Jesus second coming has yet to be fulfilled so I would think that there are plenty of scoffers at that one.
    Please, Please, I don’t speak for other prophets nor do they speak for me, but you can rest assured that if I get a word from God, you don’t have to doubt where it came from.

    (not sure if it was this exact site – but it is the same Jake, I’m sure.)

    2 things, Jake. First, there’s a big difference between prophecies that haven’t yet come to pass, and prophecies that are WRONG.

    (I’ll use the one about God using Bill Clinton as a Godly example for this country…) That was an IHOP prophecy – I believe Paul Cain shared that one…

    Second: from your message, I’m taking what you said on your last sentence there that you, Jake, are a prophet? Is that correct?
    Please give a biblical definition of what you are. Thanks.

  • Bill // October 12, 2007 at 7:56 pm | Reply

    SP,

    different Jake, I do think.

  • IWanthetruth // October 12, 2007 at 9:28 pm | Reply

    SadParent,

    Bill is correct, different Jake, but good point on the prophets….

  • SadParent // October 12, 2007 at 9:55 pm | Reply

    Jake, please accept my apologies! Big goof on my part!

  • Bill // October 14, 2007 at 10:05 pm | Reply

    >I go to FIRE church in NC. It doesn’t get much more charismatic than that.

    Mark Jr.

    I’m listening to Michael Brown’s 9/2/07 sermon right now.
    It doesn’t get much better than that

    Charismatic? Not so sure.

    -Bill

  • iseeitdifferently // October 14, 2007 at 11:07 pm | Reply

    Well, he’s always good for bringing that hard word. This place is a cut above the average goofy and spacey charismatic church. They aren’t afraid to bring a rough message and mess you up, which most places seem to be.

    mark jr.

  • Eddie // October 16, 2007 at 12:24 pm | Reply

    “Well, he’s always good for bringing that hard word. ”

    He needs to learn how to soften his message up and not offend people. I can’t believe that he preaches messages like that. That’s not what Jesus did.

    Eddie

    P.S. Is the sarcasam evident enough?

  • totaltransformation // October 16, 2007 at 10:37 pm | Reply

    I’ve never seen so much adieu about the word “the.” I think the word “is” is getting jealous. HA!

  • Bill // October 17, 2007 at 6:09 am | Reply

    >He needs to learn how to soften his message up and not offend people. I can’t believe that he preaches messages like that. That’s not what Jesus did.

    Eddie,

    Jesus wasn’t a Jew from New York.

  • Linda // January 21, 2008 at 8:03 am | Reply

    Jakestimp, you are exactly correct with your biblical examples of prophets. Elijah was a man with like passions as any man, yet it rained or not according to his prayer (Jas 5:17-18). He moved in the prophetic very proficiently until he died. “Like passions” implies he wasn’t perfect BEFORE God gave him a full-fledged prophetic ministry. Mark Jr, you are also right on with your hunger and thirst for righteousness. You sound like Jonathan Edwards. His famous sermon “Sinners in the hands of an angry God” turned this whole country around a few hundred years ago. That kind of preaching has not been in vogue for a long time, but I sense you are laying hold of an anointing for this. God’s holiness is very terrifying. He visited me that way one time in my 20’s. I was sitting on my bedroom floor hating myself for having a crush on a guy at work while being married. I was repenting with all my heart, utterly frustated and deeply ashamed. The room got really white-bright, my eyes were tightly shut and the brightness was almost blinding right through my eyelids. I was WAY too terrified to open my eyes and look. I was literally scared for my life. I felt so mortal like a tiny dry weed too close to a huge bonfire. The intense love of God was equally overwhelming. It’s hard to describe how love like a hydrogen bomb and pure terror can be the same experience, but that was God. I understand why Isaiah said “Woe is me” when he saw the Lord lifted up in the temple and how people fell as dead men when God or even an angel came to them. About prophecy, words of wisdom/knowledge– The repentant, sensitive heart is essential maintenance for a pure prophetic flow. Repentance is a turning away from selfishness. It keeps the motive pure. Coveting the spiritual gifts is not so we can impress and wow people. It is not Christian fortune-telling. The truth shall set people free. Jesus is the Truth, we are His Body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all (Eph. 1:23). Fullness certainly includes us speaking from Him to people He wants to address personally. Jesus gave words of wisdom and knowledge (ex: Samaritan woman by the well) because he had compassion and wanted to liberate people. There are few things as powerful as a deeply personal word from God in due season to a lost hungry soul. It just beats the heck out of an impersonal tract with the traditional 4 spiritual laws… 1) You are a sinner going to hell, 2) Jesus died so you can go to heaven, etc, etc. If I were a lost soul, I would be so grateful for someone taking the time to get a real word from God just for me. That’s a whole lot more bother for the believer than jabbing a generic salvation tract at a stranger. The former shows God’s love to leave the 99 and go after the one lost sheep. It requires pressing into God, waiting on God, learning His voice, absorbing His nature. The latter is often punch-the-clock “working for Jesus” to salve the dead works conscience or meet their church’s requirement to witness to 3 people this week. Connection to the Vine is the basis of evangelism. The point is to bear fruit not just be busy. Everyone, the controversial treasure hunt is for the treasure hid or destined to be hid in earthen vessels, and don’t sweat the semantics and grammatical details of “the prophetic”, and don’t criticize the maturation process of those learning to prophesy. God will crucify the flesh and ego bit by bit- it’s not your place to be mean. That’s not helpful. You wouldn’t tear down your 1 year old as he/she first learns to walk. Paul wants us ALL to prophesy (I Cor 14:1). Paul also addressed the reports of those preaching Christ from selfish ambition just to upset him in prison, and what was Paul’s response? He appreciated ALL the efforts to preach Christ even if from envy and strife (Phil 1: 15-18). We don’t get over to Bethel that often, but I can tell you those ministry school students are very sincere in trying to learn the voice of God and do His will. Fri pm’s they and a hundred others all bumrush the back doors of the church right after the worship to go take the city of Redding for Jesus. That’s how excited they are about God. That raucous worship seems to wind them up with more love for God than they need for their own personal use, so they hunt down unsuspecting people to share God’s love with. With all the lukewarmness in the Christian world, give them a break!!! WWJD? He ever lives to make intercession for us (Heb 7:23). Pray for them to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s good for you; it’s good for them.

  • iseeitdifferently // January 21, 2008 at 3:03 pm | Reply

    “It’s hard to describe how love like a hydrogen bomb and pure terror can be the same experience, but that was God. ”

    That’s how I got saved. It isn’t hard to describe, it’s impossible. You and I wouldn’t even be able to talk about it together, we’d only be able to nod our heads and say, “Yep.”

    “With all the lukewarmness in the Christian world, give them a break!!!”

    I have always maintained that there is a lot of good coming out of Bethel Church, but there is a lot of bad and it corrupts the full affect of the good. It’s like having a juicy 16oz. steak that’s been marinated for two days in Soy Vey, but then you go to eat it and bite down on a thick piece of grissle and get grossed out and can’t finish the rest. What a waste. But if the chef had prepared it right, this wouldn’t happen. I guess I just want to trim “the nasty”.
    So I’m greatful for their zeal and getting out and ‘doing’ something; I just want to see that zeal tempered with knowledge (Prov. 19:2). John Wesley would remark on how he’d rather have people to excited for Jesus whom he can train in their zeal than to have dead people who can’t even do anything at all. It’s easier to cool down a fanatic than it is to warm up a corpse.

    Thanks for your words. They are appreciated.
    mark jr.

  • Mary // January 21, 2008 at 5:26 pm | Reply

    I guess Iam missing the point. Why does one need the “prophetic” in evangelism? The gospel isn’t good enough?

    What is the point? Most people don’t understand the gospel. Why convolute it more in their minds?
    If the treasure hunting isn’t new agish visualization then what is? Where do you draw the line. What was discribed to me in the original post is not seen in the new testiment. So how do you justify it?

  • natrimony // January 22, 2008 at 1:32 am | Reply

    Mark jr.,

    I think you are really onto something. “The prophetic” is not a separate entity. Your statement that–”Prophets weren’t men who walked in “the prophetic”. They were men who walked with God and could be trusted with “forth speaking” His thoughts. They didn’t use the prophetic, they were used by God and what came forth was prophetic,”
    –may even be profound. No matter how much those inside the movement rail against this type of honesty they must admit that it is a very real dynamic.

  • Samuel // January 22, 2008 at 4:39 pm | Reply

    thats Shmuley Boteachs picture, or just very similar…….

  • Ben // January 23, 2008 at 12:18 am | Reply

    Sam…you got his name backwards…it’s Boteach Shmuley

  • iseeitdifferently // January 23, 2008 at 12:21 am | Reply

    No, Ben, you retard, your brother has it right. It’s Shmuley Boteach.
    Ha, that’s what you get for trying to correct your big brother in public!!

    LOL….
    Nah, that dude is a co-author on a blog called The Greycoats. Good guys…

    mark jr.

  • Kevin M // February 11, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Reply

    Mark,
    My church is indirectly getting involved with Bethel through a sister church in Alabama – it’s seeking the experience and I’m sure they’re gonna get it, problem is I don’t see any discernment, testing of the spirits, it’s all about gimme gimme gimme the power and presence. Email me if you are interested in talking with me. Thanks.

  • Dale // July 1, 2008 at 7:07 pm | Reply

    Interesting posts. First let me say I attend a church that believes the gifts operate today. We are not wild and crazy but do believe Gods giftings operate in people today. I would like to hear from someone who has visited the place or actually dialogued with Bill Johnson. My take is that there is a significant focus on the charismainia aspect and little focus on any fruit that may or may not be coming from the school. Personally,I know five people who have attended. Each has had positive experiences. Several have been transformed from worldy believers to people on fire for the gospel. One young man is currently doing inner city ministry. Feeding the homeless. Another is actually on my media team at my local church. SOLID young man. Shares Christ regularly, walks the talk . Yes some of the things I have seen during thier time at the school were a little odd. However, their focus when coming out has not been the expierience but rather the living of the gospel. Loving God and loving their neighbor. Frankly, I can do much of the same type of critisizm using Baptists as a target. Bottom line, some the baptists I have met are so out of line it’s not funny. Then again, others have been some of the most loving, “christian” people I have met. All the while, we do not see eye to eye on several issues. If you read Bethels statement of faith, they believe the necessary things to be mainstream. Question is what fruit is coming from the ministry. Are lives being restored? Are the lost coming to Christ? Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

  • Dale // July 1, 2008 at 7:08 pm | Reply

    Hey kevin, would be interested in hearing more

  • iseeitdifferently // July 1, 2008 at 9:51 pm | Reply

    Thanks for your thoughts Dale.
    If I could, I’d like to suggest you click the tab that says “Before You Comment”, or the other two that kinda share my heart on what you spoke of.

    No babies are thrown out here. But thanks for the words just the same bro. That reminder needs to stay fresh in our hearts as we look into these kinds of things.
    mark jr.

  • iseeitdifferently // July 1, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Reply

    Oh, and I lived not too far from that church and went there several times to conferences and have dear friends you go there and lead ministry teams as well. Great guys with great wives, living Godly in Christ Jesus.
    Bad teaching though, and not without practical implications that seem to lead to stuff that I don’t have time to chronicle right now….mostly because I already have and also because it’s just too time consuming to do so.
    But yeah, I’ve been there a bunch. I love Hebrews Coffee!
    mark jr.

  • SK // August 12, 2008 at 7:39 am | Reply

    The creator of this blog obviously must have been kicked out of BSSM.
    Because there is such an offense, this is not right.
    And if you are a christians it says in the bible the servants of God do not strife.

  • iseeitdifferently // August 12, 2008 at 10:23 am | Reply

    The writter of the last comment obviously thought she was right before letting out her words, creating equal offense which is equally not right.

    You obviously didn’t read the post that says BEFORE YOU COMMENT. Click it, it won’t hurt.

    For one who believes strife is so bad, you sure have gone out of your way to make sure you get it riled up with your judgment of me. Was it righteous judgment or a totally uninformed judgment?
    Obviously it was a uninformed judgment because you’re wrong, I’ve never been to BSSM. I’ve gone to conferences there and several services and chased Bill Johnson around NorCal for a while…..like, when I thought he was an apostle and stuff.

    But thanks for your loving, warm and tender christian thoughts of concern.

  • Tim H // August 12, 2008 at 11:38 pm | Reply

    That was so very sweet what “she” said. My heart strings are just being so tugged with the warm fuzzy. (ok sarcasm, I apologize)

    LOL to all…

    But, then, I suppose that is where she goes and she is feeling the need to defend her church and pastor and friends and ministries.

    Sometimes I wonder if reactions such as that are really an inward anger because some truth has been spoken and brought some “false” to light and it is actually affecting them in some way. Is Jesus speaking to them that just maybe there is a truth to the post?

  • aut // September 5, 2009 at 7:43 pm | Reply

    “But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.”
    1 Corinthians 14:3

  • mark jr. // September 6, 2009 at 5:21 pm | Reply

    Uh, thank you?

  • Paul // September 12, 2009 at 4:10 pm | Reply

    Mark,

    I won’t profess to have read a lot of your thoughts but i will comment on this post and i have to go on what i read here. I won’t read any of your other posts because what i feel in the undercurrent and spirit of your writing is a deep offense at the supernatural of God and a dishonouring of what God is doing.

    Please be careful how you position yourself in relation to what God is doing for your sake. When you take a stance against a true move of God and publicly dishonour and even more, rebuke God’s voice in another you are setting yourself up for a fall.

    Whatever truth was in your writing was lost in the spirit in which you wrote it. You said it yourself – Frustration.

    I think – question and challenge and wrestle with God, absolutely but be responsible in how you write. Yeah free speech and all that. But your posts come up third in a google search on bethel school of supernatural. When you publically share your frustrated commentary and preach against a move of God that you clearly have seen from a distance but not experienced (is this is your frustration?) you are not advancing God’s kingdom. in fact you are hindering it.

    I’m not going to address the errors i see in your interpretation of scripture regarding prophecy and the prophetic gifts (or rather your omissions – because your interpretation of what a prophet is WAS true before Jesus came and lived and died as a man) but i’m gonna pray that you find a deep revelation of God’s Grace and that it blasts you out of every last bit of the law of sin and death.

  • Mark Hicks // September 13, 2009 at 1:38 am | Reply

    Wow…I have been looking for some needed insight into what I see going on in redding and at the school of ministry. On top of “the prophetic” issues I see, I have always felt that there people from this movement that have a very twisted view of God. It’s almost as if God is molding puddy and he answers to humans. There is a lack of reverance and fear of the Lord. Everything seems to be man centered and about unity without regard to biblical truth. I have been to Bethel several times. I hear sermons about healings and experiences and gold teeth. Jesus commandend ” make disciples, teaching them all things I have taught you. We need the word of God. We need a burden for lost souls not just to heal people and prophecy.

  • iseeitdifferently // September 13, 2009 at 7:19 pm | Reply

    Paul;
    You were wrong about me on so many levels. Not one single judgment call that you made about me was remotely accurate; I thought being judgmental was wrong?

    The law of sin and death is already blasted; that’s what born again IS. Neither have power over me.

    Jesus coming and dying as a man has nothing to do with the character of the prophetic office and there isn’t a shred of NT scripture to back that assertion up.

    I have been to Bethel several times. I used to go out with Bill’s brother Bob onto the streets of S.F. every other Friday night (San Francisco Dream Center). I’m WELL acquainted with this movement.

    Paul told us to test every spirit and to not just believe every one. Test, hold onto the good. Your unwillingness to read the “Before You Comment” tab and the “About” tab show that you have no clue what you speak of in relation to me. I have many, MANY times sp0ken of the elements that are good from that place. You make yourself look bad when you level judgments and accusations that already have answers to the contrary available; but you seem to not believe for one second that you could have been wrong about me. You went ahead full steam and accused me falsely.

    “I won’t read any of your other posts” is the reason why you don’t know what you’re talking about in regard to me. And, it’s narrow minded and will keep you in a box of charismatic oral tradition. My favorite thing to do is read what is contrary to my own beliefs and stretch myself. Why not try the same? You can actually learn stuff that way and find out what truth’s are in other Christian schools of thought…even Bethel!

    If God’s voice is not speaking through someone and you don’t speak, that is setting yourself up for a fall my friend. Jeremiah 23.

    If I have “a deep offence to the supernatural of God”, I should quit operating in spiritual gifts I guess. No more visions, no more prophesying…no more words of wisdom or knowledge…and I certainly wouldn’t want anyone healed. Better quit praying for that too. Oh, and I should definitely leave FIRE church.

    For all the mistakes you believe you saw in me (without backing), you made many in your wrong judgment of me. “Stop judging by mere appearances and make righteous judgment”.

    If judgmentalism about a servant of God is wrong, then it’s wrong for you as well as anyone else.
    “Be quick to listen, slow to speak”.

    You can’t tell me I’m wrong for doing something, yet the very act of your reproof is itself a more perfect demonstration of that level of wrong speaking and judging. Be careful yourself son.

  • IWanthetruth // September 13, 2009 at 9:04 pm | Reply

    ISeeitdifferently,

    Your response?

    God’s Revealed Will
    Understanding God’s Boundaries

    Many Christians labor under the notion that there is an unrevealed, perfect will of God for their life that must be discovered in order for them to truly please God.

    “Words from the Lord” coupled with youthful zeal—not to mention a burdensome theological error spurned man on.

    Many others think, based on a misinterpretation of Romans 12:2, that there is a “perfect” will of God that covers all of the details of life (at least the important ones). Since this will is specific to each individual, it is not found in the Bible but must be discovered through some means of personal revelation.

    Fallen humanity desires information that God has not revealed—secret, spiritual knowledge not contained in Scripture. This desire goes back to the Garden of Eden where Eve desired the “wisdom” (Genesis 3:6) that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil offered, but that God had not chosen to reveal. Since the Fall, humans have inherited her yearning. In fact, all pagan religions are based on some version of that secret spiritual knowledge.

    God has given us only two valid categories of knowledge: 1) general revelation and 2) specific revelation. General revelation provides what can be understood about the physical universe using human senses and human reason. Specific revelation refers to the Bible—the Old and New Testaments. When referring to a third category, the Bible says: “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law” (Deuteronomy 29:29). Notice that the phrases “the things revealed” and “the words of this law” are synonymously parallel—God’s truth is revealed in Scripture. All other spiritual knowledge falls into the category “secret things.” Seeking such knowledge is the essence of divination.

    The distinction between what is revealed and what is forbidden, secret, spiritual knowledge is discussed in Deuteronomy 18. There, processes designed to obtain the “secret things” that belong only to God are forbidden:

    When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. (Deuteronomy 18:9-11)

    The term “divination” is a general term that covers practices that people invent to gain unrevealed information from the spirit world. Christians have invented their own ways to practice divination. The reason for this, I think, is fallen humanity’s universal lust for contact with the spirit world and the allure of the spiritual knowledge contained there. The irony is that Christians think they can get God Himself to satisfy their lust for spiritual information He has not chosen to reveal. False teachings even make them think that their desire for this information is a sign of superior piety. I know because I used to think that way.

    Deuteronomy 18 presents the issue: “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him” (Deuteronomy 18:14, 15).

    Moses mediated God’s revealed will to His people. God promised the Old Testament saints also that in the future He would raise up a prophet like Moses, and when He did, they should listen to Him. This would be a unique prophet inasmuch as He would be like Moses. The Old Testament prophets were not lawgivers; they applied God’s Law as given to Moses and predicted the future. They also brought special revelations of God’s will for the theocratic Kingdom, Israel. But the Old Testament prophets were not that special prophet who would be like Moses. The special Prophet was Jesus Christ who is the Mediator of the New Covenant. Later, I will show this from the New Testament.

    Now, let’s return to our discussion of Deuteronomy 18. God desired to speak to the people through a mediator, not directly: “This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’ The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well’” (Deuteronomy 18:16, 17). God approved of their statement because it was good that one person, whom God chose (Moses), would hear God and mediate God’s authoritative Word to His people. This also points forward to a future person who would speak authoritatively for God like Moses: “I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (Deuteronomy 18:18, 19). Twice God promises a future authoritative prophet who would be like Moses. The prophets of the Old Covenant were not like Moses because they did not mediate the Law or any new terms of a covenant.

    However, even prophets had to be tested. Deuteronomy reveals two tests for prophets: 1) their words and predictions have to be true and accurate (Deuteronomy 18:22), and 2) even if accurate in their predictions, they must not tell the people to serve gods they have not known (Deuteronomy 13:1-3). So there would be true prophets who spoke for God, but only Moses was given the terms of the covenant and the true description of the God who made the covenant. Any prophet was false who deviated from the God who revealed Himself to the patriarchs and to Moses. But the promise remained that one day a prophet like Moses would arise.

    Divination is to seek unmediated spiritual knowledge. For example, when Saul refused to listen to God’s word through an authoritative prophet (Samuel, who gave instructions from God to Saul, a valid practice of true prophets in the theocratic kingdom), Saul’s practice was likened to divination: “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He has also rejected you from being king” (1Samuel 15:23). Saul’s rebellion was likened to “divination” because Saul had circumvented God’s revealed will and found spiritual direction elsewhere (from his own mind). Refusing to acknowledge and submit to God’s boundaries is tantamount to divination.
    The problem with mystical guidance we assume to have come from God is this: If we accept it as God’s authoritative word, the impression rules over us even if it is not from God. The true word of God found in Scripture is inerrant and authoritative. If we take words to be authoritative but are not inerrant, then we let potentially false words rule over us in God’s name. This is always harmful.

    Despite this, many Christians believe that there is a secret will of God for their lives that can only be determined by some manner of personal, special revelation. They wait to hear His voice in their minds. Since this special revelation is not infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit, it “reveals” a flawed and unreliable “will of God.”

  • iseeitdifferently // September 17, 2009 at 10:11 am | Reply

    Sounds like they labor under the erroneous notion of cessationism. Funny thing about all this is that I haven’t seen scriptures used to prove that God quit talking when the cannon was completed. This guy probably is a KJV Only cult follower too…

    And divination is not seeking UNmediated knowledge, it is always through a medium. That statement didn’t make any sense…

    …and it doesn’t erase the biblical model of God speaking to people and it brought no biblical proof that it was to ever have an ending date set in stone and that anyone in early church history saw it that way.

    I am quite limited on time…but basically I’ll just say this: this essay is sorta…well, it’s just bunk.

  • iseeitdifferently // September 17, 2009 at 10:14 am | Reply

    Also sounds like he thinks that since Jesus was the prophet that Moses announced, there is no real prophetic office.
    I guess Paul was wrong when He said that “God placed IN THE CHURCH…prophets.” I don’t see an expiration date on that page of scripture…maybe it’s “still good”.

  • Paul // September 17, 2009 at 1:56 pm | Reply

    Mark I apologise if I misunderstood you.
    And i apologise if you felt judged from what i wrote. That was not my intention and i repent if that’s what came out. I reacted to how i felt from the tone of your post.

    What i wrote i wrote from what i felt coming from your post which distracted me from trying to find info on Bethel Church.

    My feeling about the effect of publicly and conspicuously sharing ideas like this from a place of frustration is still the same. If i DISCERNED incorrectly from reading this one post, and it sounds like i have, i am so sorry. But i don’t JUDGE you.

    I actually think that if we’d had this conversation in person we’d really get along. Sparks might fly but we’d be sharper and we’d still be friends.

    Bless ya heaps

  • mark jr. // September 17, 2009 at 4:31 pm | Reply

    Yeah, we probably would get along just fine. Thanks for the email response also.

    I left this blog up regarding this certain church because they are so famous and teach so many horribly wrong things that if someone IS going to go there, at least they can have some kind of objective viewpoint from an insider of the movements. I really want folks to not be afraid to ask them questions and challenge them biblically about what they do and teach. That’s also why I have my disclaimers at the top of the blog page; I want folks to get the substance and not the spirit I wrote most of it in.

    mark jr.

  • Iwanthetruth // September 18, 2009 at 4:55 am | Reply

    Thanks for the input…As I expected you would respond…

  • al // October 13, 2009 at 1:32 pm | Reply

    Acts 2:17 (New International Version)

    17″ ‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.

    ******************************************

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version)

    16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    I think some walk in the prophetic because to live there is too intense. The prophetic possibly because it is a gift and gifts are usually nouns, perhaps just bad grammar. I am called solely to walk my walk with the Lord and I will honour those who glorify the name of Christ. I am no judge of you, Kris Vallotton or anyone that is God’s job. I am sure the Bible verses speak louder then I.

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