At least it’s new to me. I just found it today. I clicked on an article from Ben Israel and it turned into the site that is now being maintained to preserve his life’s teachings and corrective words to much of charismatic christendom.
As most of you know, he’s my hero as far as men on earth are concerned. He was the guy that finally articulated with actual words what I had been feeling in my gut for years in my christian experience in the charismatic and prophetic (so-called) movements. I finally understood why I just couldn’t go along with so much stuff, even though my mind was often unfruitful as to why.
I highly commend his ministry. Look for his testimony for starters. The way that God apprehended the man is phenomenal.
Art Katz Ministries
mark jr.
73 responses so far ↓
Bill // February 10, 2008 at 8:22 pm |
Did you know that Art Katz once said of Paul Cain:
“That man is a prophet of God”… “He lold me secrets of my heart which no man could possibly know!” (David Pyches, Some Say It Thundered, (Oliver-Nelson: Nashville, Th.), 1991, p.81
Hmmmm.
iseeitdifferently // February 10, 2008 at 9:26 pm |
Yeah, but you should hear what he had to say about him specifically in a sermon I heard once.
Art made those statements many years before “the lights came on”, so to speak. If you see his statements recently about this movement as compared to his first encounter with it….well, the tune changed dramatically. He called them false prophets and in the Ben Israel schools he named them all by name.
I once thought these men were real prophets for the same reasons.
mark jr.
Bill // February 10, 2008 at 10:47 pm |
The funny thing is that the old statement resurfaces from time to time.
My wife saw Paul Cain down at Mahesh’s church one time. Being spiritually dense she just thought he was creepy. In retrospect, the natural reaction was correct.
-Willie
iseeitdifferently // February 10, 2008 at 11:36 pm |
Yeah, someone did that a long time ago on the SOJ. It’s like they now he’s the real thing (as close to it as it gets as far as I’ve seen and heard) and use his very old statements to back up what they know he put down. It’s just not honest for them to do this.
Your wife wasn’t dense, sounds like she was dead on.
mark jr.
Bill // February 11, 2008 at 12:21 am |
She was at TACF for most of a week and had to listen to Jim Goll blather on endlessly about his “dreams,” which was his concept of “teaching.” Eventually she went back to the hotel room and just read her bible.
Sissie (Katz) Pennel // February 17, 2008 at 4:19 am |
Hi!
The website is new….it’s actually still under construction so I am surprised that is is posted already. We are trying to preserve the legacy of my father, the words he gave forth and present it in a world wide format so that others can obtain from what we who knew him were so fortunate to see and hear while he was still alive.
Blessings to you all.
Sissie
(Art’s daughter)
Mary // February 17, 2008 at 10:42 pm |
Sissie,
Thank You. I didn’t know who your father was until I started to blog here. I have been very blessed and spiritually enriched to have access to his articles. He is deeply missed.
iseeitdifferently // February 17, 2008 at 10:59 pm |
Sissie,
I’m greatly honored for you to have dropped by here. I loved your dad very much. He is, so far, the single most influential man in my life. I’m glad you guys are putting up this site for the preservation of his legacy….or rather the Lord’s legacy through him.
Blessings to you,
mark jr.
Sissie (Katz) Pennel // February 18, 2008 at 4:06 am |
This would have blessed him as he felt he had many spiritual children and he loved them all. Keep this up. It’s great! We are planning a reunion the last week of June if anyone wants to make plans to come up to Northern Minnesota!
Sissie
lbolm // February 18, 2008 at 2:39 pm |
There have been many people who have fallen and yet God used them in varied ways.
There was the Prophet Balaam who was mentioned as “only speaking what God had to say” and not what kings and others wanted to hear. The problem came later when he succombed to the lust of money.
Of course we shouldn’t forget about David who was “a man after God’s own heart”, yet he too fell into lust for another man’s wife and then had the man killed, yet David was the one whom was God’s selected line for the Branch [Jesus] to come from.
Samson was a mighty man of strength and right living whom had been dedicated to God from birth. Yet he broke his vow to God and therefore his covenant because of the seduction of a woman. Even then God still was able to give Samson a second chance and allowed him to regain his strength to destroy the enemy.
There are more than these! My point is God is a forgiving God and is sovereign in that HE will use even those that others don’t see fit or worthy of their calling. If God sees fit to use someone that we wouldn’t, then who is man to judge?
I have heard Paul Cain speak last October in Columbia SC. All I can say is he preached the word from The Word. He spoke with trembling lips at first, but as The Spirit came over him, and you could visibly see the change, he spoke as one with great love for the Word and for The Father. This was one of the first times he spoke after his fall and subsequent restoration.
That is the kind of God I serve and love with all my heart. Why? Because we have all fallen short of His Glory, but HE is quick to forgive and Love us still.
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
Brandon // March 8, 2008 at 12:04 am |
But his heart isn’t right…
acts 8:13-23
Has Paul Cain repented? Maybe you can get an unbiased opinion from me, because I don’t know who Paul Cain or any of those prophetic guys or whatever are or what they did really….
I’m not saying he has repented, or that you should even post a reply to this comment.
Because I’m tired of this argument, you can post these things on the Gruen interview thing i think, or w/e
If you must, I have sinned, I’ve done these things, Mark knows, but he doesn’t ignore me and tell me I have no place in any kind of ministry at all, and that i should just “retire” or w/e lol…. But he knows how I feel about my sin, i don’t just brush off the conviction and continue to live in it (now anyways..)
Maybe you should listen to the sermon “the error of Balaam” by Keith Green… at sermon index…
Just try not to reply to this.. i don’t wanna argue… lol…
And yeah, I’ve yet to go to the site, I haven’t listened to much of art katz i found his sermons hard to understand…
But I will soon…
I mean i have listened to a few sermons… so yeah….
i’m gonna stop rambling, it’s awesome to see you here “sissie”
iseeitdifferently // March 8, 2008 at 12:09 am |
My sentiments are on the Gruen page.
If this thread goes off the deep end as the other one did, I’ll have to stop this one to and I’d rather not have to.
mark jr.
Brandon // March 10, 2008 at 3:19 am |
Paul Cain is a straight up G.
iseeitdifferently // March 12, 2008 at 12:21 am |
Shut up Brandon…
Thomas // March 30, 2008 at 10:24 pm |
Hi,
I appreciate your blogs. Though I do not even know whether I agree with you (or should) , specifically, with respect to Bethel Chuch’s prophetic ministry, I would like to get your perspectives on some of the issues I have been dealing with. First, I am a huge Art Katz fan. Though it feels like I am getting kicked in the teeth every time I hear his sermons, I just can’t seem to stop listening to them. (By the way, Art Katz Ministry.org website no longer works. Do you know what happened? I still have lots of sermons left to download!!)
Past 6 years have been the most difficult times of my life, and it was only through God’s grace and love I have been able to stand up and continue on this difficult journey, which I would not discuss in great detail here. Ever since God “yanked me” back to his side again 6 years ago, my desire to live for Christ has been steadily growing. It is my sincere prayer and desire to have an unfailing spritual discernment lest I may backslide again.
Ravi Zacharias and Chuck Swindoll had always been my favorite bible teachers before I heard one of Art Katz’s sermons. As you know, they’re not exactly in the charismatic movement. But the thing is that I never gave speaking in tougues, signs, and wonders a chance despite the fact that they were clearly some of the manifestations of the gift of the holy spirit in the first century church. In fact, Art Katz, too, received the baptism of the holy spirit and the gift of tougues (as you probably know, Art talks about them in his book, Ben Israel: Odyssey of a Modern Jew, page 147, bottom of 3rd para).
I had always been hurt and disappointed the church and by the chuch in my history of walk with Christ. It is no exaggeration to state that I had never felt the kind of true fellowship that Art spoke of in his sermon, “True Fellowship.” Almost all of the Christian brothers and sisters I had known in the past were very reluctant to talk about theological issues, spiritual issues, etc, during social gathering times. I had never formed a true friendship with any confessing Christians in my whole life.
Then I came across this one partcular church in my state. Art Katz gave a couple of sermons there a few years ago. This church is in the charismatic/revival movement. One of the leaders there is someone I have a great respect for, and it was because of him, I started going there. In fact, Art Katz spoke highly of him in one of his sermons (“Seek not honor from men, but from God”). I recently attended a conference this church hosted, where Kris Vollaton from Bethel Church was invited as a guest speaker. Coming from Presbyterian church, I was completely new to the charismatic worship style and all the other prophetic and healing stuff. But what I felt during the worship and prayer at the conference….was real. This…inexplicable sense of galvanization of the spirit….it was real to me. Though I would have much preferred hearing God’s voice calling my name as He did to Art, I truly felt something really powerful there. In addition, some of the people there I spoke to and prayed with showed such genuine warmth and caring to me. It was something I had never experienced anywhere else. I felt as though I was witnessing the true reflection of the body of Christ. This church’s moto is becoming the “salt and light” of the nations. It is not only involved in “Treasure Hunting” like ministry, but also, sends its people everywhere in the world to spread the gospel. I’ve been feeling compelled to love and accept this chuch, though I am still not used to the charismatic stuff. I was so scared the other day that I wept and cried out to God, “please tell me this is real, Lord. Is this love and intimacy I sense from this particlar body of Christ real?” I’m ever more convinced now that it is real. Ever since the conference, the words in Psalm 119 started to reap out of the pages, and I became much stronger resisting certain sins in my life. These people are not just “Sunday buddies.” They show interests in me and wish to build a relationship with me. I am deeply touched by their love.
So, here are my questions to you. Do you believe that Bethel Church’s prophetic ministry is a heretic? Do you believe that Bill Johnson and Kris Vollaton are false prophets? Do you believe that this church I’ve come to adore is making a lethal error by associating itself with Bethel?
I would really appreciate your kind reply. Thank you for reading my long post with much patience.
-A sheep with the spirit of Thomas
Mary // March 31, 2008 at 1:03 am |
Thomas,
Keep checking back on this blog. Mark has some family matters to attend to and I don’t know if he is blogging too much these days. But when he has the time I’m sure he’s love to answer your questions.
Blessings to you-
TJSmith // March 31, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
Try this
http://www.benisrael.org/
Thomas // March 31, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
Dear Mark:
I just learned from one of your comments that you go to FIRE church!!!! The church that I mentioned above is FIRE church. So, what’s your opinion on Bethel now since Fire Church ostensibly associated itself with Bethel? One of the brothers there shared with everyone during the service about his “Treasure Hunting” evangelism last week. Listen, I’m not trying to push you to the corner of contradiction. I, too, am very disturbed by other more easily discernable false prophets such as Benny Hinn. But since you know a lot about all the behind the scenes of Bethel and its ministry, aren’t you concerned that now Fire has adopted some of its prophetic techniques?
Listen, I didn’t agree with everything Kris Valloton said at the Kingdom Conference, but, I just can’t imagine he is just another Benny Hinn.
iseeitdifferently // March 31, 2008 at 10:36 pm |
Well, I have been meaning to get around to posting on what Kris preached on Sunday. As I said in another post, most of it was pretty awesome and I intend to major on those points, however I won’t ignore some of the things that I kinda got bothered by. Something about “loving ourselves” that made me almost gag…I don’t know…
But maybe you saw me, my wife and two kids up there getting prayed for before the last song in worship? Jen is the one with the mass in the left side of her brain.
Kris and Bill LOVE Benny Hinn, they’re like homies and stuff. And as far as I know, FIRE hasn’t “adopted” Bethel’s prophetic sylings….at least I never heard that. I know they’re all about being a living demonstration of the kingdom of God in the real world and that may mean prophesying to a stranger, which I have no issue against….
…and yeah, I was kinda tripped out by the linking of arms between the two bodies, but I know that there are some very important things that Bethel stands for that we want to at FIRE as well….and really, they seem to always have stood for those things. I’m not a FIRE spokesman though….
You know what though….I’ll just email you and leave you my number. Let’s have dinner and gab.
And as far as your revelation of the Body of Christ is concerned, I absolutely must validate that claim with my whole heart. I’ve never, EVER witnessed or experienced this kind of fellowship. Dear Lord….my prayer group buddies and homegirls just bless our families socks off…..I could go on and on. I really love these people.
Overall, I’m not concerned about the “link up”. Maybe I should be….I am a little worried that some will imbibe that church’s prophetic teachings, i.e. “how to be prophetic”. It’s scary how they teach people to “be” prophetic. It could be placed alongside the TV talk show pyschic’s, for all intents and purposes.
So maybe I am a little concerned….I don’t know. I’m still in process of talking these things out with friends of mine at FIRE and will be talking these things over with my pastor Scott….and who knows, maybe I can get Bob’s ear too.
Yeah….we’ll have to hook up and stuff cuz now I’m doing the rambling on this blog that I’d rather do face to face….
Nice to have hooked up with you bro!
mark jr.
Bill // April 7, 2008 at 5:46 pm |
OK, I’ll Weigh in on Chris. Recently he spoke at God’s Place in Ogden UT. I had always heard about people who equate God’s (logos) Word with stale manna, but when I heard it, it felt like a punch in the gut.
He’s a good speaker, and (mis) uses the scriptures, but is IMHO theologically warped.
Here’s a few highlights from his message:
(parenthesis mine).
“What you know can keep you from what you need to know.”
“Its not what God said, but what God is saying, that is food to our souls.”
There is another dimension of God which most Christians seldom experience, and that is the intoxicating presence of God that Jesus describes as wine, so that when God comes in that dimension you begin to think out of your self, outside of yourself
And so we (leaders) have an obligation to define reality; we have an obligation to find the current (rhema) word of God so that we don’t get irrelevant to the world.
He also suggests that there will be peace on earth BEFORE the return of the Lord. “Religion causes war, but the kingdom stops it.” (Dominion theology)
“If we don’t stay current with God (rhema word) than what happens…?
“I Think we need to go from catepillar to butterfly. I think we need to stop getting our information from the dirt (logos word).”
Goes on to talk about Apostolic mission, the “city church” concept. And the need for Apostles.
‘The Lord says” There is an epic season change. We are moving from denominationalism to apostleships. Ask me what that means.” I said “What does that mean?” He said “(in) Denominationalism people divide over what they agree on. And he said, I’m about to pour out NEW REVELATION THAT THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE. I’m about to open up the vaults of heaven and reveal mysteries and secrets that have been hidden for the eaons of ages, even the angels don’t know what I’m about to tell the world.” ‘
He Goes on to call denominations concuibines, and those saved in denominational churches bastards.
-Bill
Bill // April 7, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
Uh, Kris, not Chris.
Tim H // April 7, 2008 at 8:38 pm |
My, my, my!!!
Just gets worse and worse doesn’t it?
Before long we will have a one world religion, all a mixture of different religions and made up from non-biblical interpretations, BUT, then maybe it will hasten the true return of Jesus.
Should I get ready to head for the hills?
iseeitdifferently // April 7, 2008 at 10:51 pm |
Wow.
Yeah, it’ll still be a while before I get to the stuff I heard him talk about when he was out here.
Some very good….some really bothersome. I have a feeling that (perhaps) he was on his guard because of who he was around. I don’t know….but I’ll get to it someday.
mark jr.
Bill // April 8, 2008 at 2:17 pm |
Mark,
Yeah I figgered got other things on your mind. I liked a lot of what he had to say, and as I said he was a very good speaker. But listening closely, I was quite bothered with the attitude toward the written Word of God, and the need to supplant, or suppliment it with “fresh revelation.” Disturbed- because I know how inaccurate the “fresh revelation” often is.
He also very strongly suggested that God will not move for those (my words) “who don’t get it.”
More specifically, he stated that the angels were ready to move on our behalf, but would not respond to our prayers until they were contexed in the restoration of the Apostolic.
Just the usual BS from the Apostolic/Prophetic movement as far as I am concerned.
As a comfirmation to my thesis, I listened to 45 minutes of personal prophecy that he gave. Predictable, the crowd went ga-ga over the first word, which was about a large sum of money coming to an individual.
I’m sorry, that isn’t authentic Chritianity. No way.
-Bill
Thomas // April 13, 2008 at 5:49 am |
Dear Bill:
I am surprised by what Kris said in UT assuming your recollection is accurate. It doesn’t sound like him. Ever since the Kingdom Conference in NC, I’ve downloaded a couple of sermons of Bill Johnson and Kris on Itune. I am still very cautious and keep my guard on when I listen to them. But I’ll have to admit that a lot them made sense.
I clearly remember Kris’s call for apostleship speech at the conference. The main point was that we believers must impact our cities and country so that the world may see Christ in us just as Jesus called us to become salt and light of the world. If we are not raising our voice against abortion, homosexuality, and all these diabolical things in the world, we are in fact losing our identity as salt or light. It’s about impacting the nations with God’s goodness and commands without any compromise.
I didn’t see anything wrong with this view. The churches (most of them in the US) that are not active in communicating with leadership in the cities or states regarding poverty, homosexuality, abortion, etc, resemble so much the churches during the 60s Civil Rights movements. I remember reading a letter from a major church leader to Martin Luther King about how African-Americans should just let go of the issue and let God bring His justice. Basically, let’s put everything in God’s hand and not do anything about these ungodly things that are going on in our country. Let’s be obedient to the authority as the scripture says. That’s a nothing more than a cop-out. The German churches pretty much all succumb to the Nazi propagenda. They were indeed “obedient” to the authority. Look what happened? When the church is silent and loses its call for a true apostlehip to bring God’s love and justice to the world, awful things happen.
I truly believe in my heart that being a follower of Yeshua is not all about being kind and giving money to poor kids in Africa. It’s much easier to be kind and generous all the time to your non-believing neighbors without getting involved in the “touchy” subjects. That’s not what carrying your own cross is about. Jesus sought honor from God, not from men. If we play safe and just be kind and generous, being a Christian is pretty easy. I don’t think there is a cross to carry with that kind of mindset. Kindness and generosity are something even the world approves of. You will receive honor from men. But speaking out against abortion, homosexuality, and any of moral turpitudes that God abhors, but the world accepts and tolerates, can cost us reputation, friends, or maybe even jobs!! Who’s got the guts and courage to do that? Who stood up against the racial inequality, but why not homosexuality and abortion? Because we are afraid that we may lose honor and respect from men!!! We care little about honor from God. This is the state of our church. Who’s got the guts to address this issue? Your local presbyterian or methodist preachers on nice sunny day on Sunday?
Florence Vall // May 10, 2009 at 4:33 pm |
Of course alot “makes sense” because SATIN mixes lies with the truth. Standing up agains homos and abortionists is hatred. Sounds good looks good but it is underhanded what Jesus meant for us to do. ONE command I give to you that sums all of them. Love your brother as yourself what good is it to love those who love you I want you to love those who are your enemies. Considers others more important than yourself. Yeah, its easy to be kind to those who are kind. True Christianity is the hardest thing one will ever do. It will be like ripping the flesh off your body. YOU WILL DIE TO YOURSELF.
Romans 1 talks about homos and the like and those who approve such then immediately it says YOU, therefore, have no excuse you who pass judgment on someone else for whatever point you judge the other you are condeming yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. So we are kind, tolerant, patience (because patience leads to repentance) loving and gracious. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU WERE TREATED BY GOD THROUGH JESUS. Judgement of sins NEVER leads anyone towards repentance only opening their eyes to a life that is beautiful as God had planned for them. It is sooooooodifficult to do this. It is a heart and mind of love that God will give to his children. 1John God is love those who abide in love abide in God. It s all about love and not finger pointing judgement. IT has taken me SOOO long to learn this. I am still learnig it. HOPEit helps you.
Mary // April 13, 2008 at 5:45 pm |
Thomas,
The most spirit filled church I was ever in was a presbyterian church. Not all demoninational churches are spiritually dead.
Florence Vall // May 10, 2009 at 4:37 pm |
What do you mean “spirit” filled. The only thing that I use to determine spirit filled is filled with LOVE. When people say someone is spirit filled. THERE are different kinds of spirits…some from satin. But since God is love Whoever lives in love lives in God and God in him. 1John 4:17 Was that what you meant?
Daniel // August 1, 2008 at 1:48 pm |
I heard a rumor once that on his death bed that Art Katz was reading books by Smith Wigglesworth and Bill Johnson. He said that he thought perhaps he should have focused more on the gift of healing during his ministry, that perhaps he could have moved the his brethren the Jews to jealousy with that type of a ministry. I don’t know if that is true it was something I heard once.
peace,
Daniel
iseeitdifferently // August 1, 2008 at 10:47 pm |
It’s true. And he may have been right.
Having said that, when you look at the sum total of Bill Johnson’s teachings and most of all the actual practice at Bethel (let alone who he is linked to and endorses) I simply cannot with good conscience recommend his teachings as a whole. There may be some good stuff in there somewhere, but the majority seems to be odd and esoteric interpretations of scripture to justify aberrant goings-on’s. That was my personal experience anyhow…if other’s dissent, they dissent.
It’s also true that perhaps more Jews could have been moved to jealousy if healing had been more dominant in his ministry. I mean, the prophets had almost no luck at all if they simply spoke and prophesied; maybe seeing the supernatural would have given his words more weight. And maybe that’s the stumbling block that God intended, i.e. no signs, just preaching. “Jews seek a sign” and Jesus seems to not enjoy condescending to this demand.
Gotta get in the shower…
mark jr.
Florence Vall // May 10, 2009 at 4:42 pm |
Jews are some of the best doctors in the world. I call that healing. When we talk about jealosy we are talking about relationship with God. God’s relationship with us that he is OUR FATHER, we acall him daddy…….of trust, hope, dependance, forgiveness I could go on forever. OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR JESUS WILL MAKE OTHERS JEALOUS. Not things.
Daniel // August 2, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
I agree, everything I have heard about Bill Johnson’s ministry has been negative. I have not took the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there. I have strong reason to believe that Smith Wigglesworth did indeed have a legitimate ministry. I also have been affected by Art Katz teachings in a similar way as you. You are right it is like he finally gives words to everything that you could see was wrong but did not know how to articulate.
beyondgrace // August 4, 2008 at 2:22 pm |
Sissie,
I heard Shelly Volk’s testimony on Dr. Brown’s radio show the other day – talking about his stay in northern Minnesota and the effect that Art Katz’s had on him. It was, of course, and amazing testimony. So nice to hear from you and make the connection. Blessings on you.
Bill Fawcett
Harrsionburg, VA
Daniel // August 4, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
Sissie,
Thanks for sharing that. I did not find out about your father’s ministry until after he went home. As a minister of the gospel who is young in his calling your father’s teachings have had a very significant effect on me in the short time I have been listening. Thanks for clearing up that rumor, it is good to know that none of his views had been changed because I feel like he was dead on.
peace,
Daniel
iseeitdifferently // August 4, 2008 at 9:45 pm |
I emailed Sissie and cleared up the issue. Turns out that Art wasn’t exactly on his “deathbed” when he had some thoughts about healing ministry and what not. It was several months before he went home when a couple of friends of mine were able to speak with him while he was still quite mentally alert.
She asked me to delete her comment, just in case anyone was wondering why it was gone.
She was under the impression that many were being told that Art had an epiphany on his deathbed and that was far from the case.
His only view that “changed” was that he thought perhaps he could have sought God more on the lines of physical restoration of bodies and such, along with the prophetic word.
So, not a changed view as much as a “I could have had more” view.
Alrighty then.
mark jr.
Mary B // August 8, 2008 at 12:23 am |
smith wigglesworth? I thought Art Katz would have better discernment than that.
Daniel // August 8, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
Mary,
Have you ever read the teachings of Smith Wigglesworth? I suggest that you do that first then make a judgment call. His healing ministry was great but it was second to his teaching ministry.
For Example it was Smith Wigglesworth who said(I am paraphrasing) “Everyday that we are not moving forward, we are in a measure actually backsliding.”
peace,
Daniel
Bryan Purtle // August 8, 2008 at 4:13 pm |
Interestingly, it was Smith Wigglesworth who stated, “Most people seem to have discernment, or think they have, and if they would turn it on themselves for twelve months they would never want to discern again. The gift of discernment is not criticism. I am satisfied that our paramount need is more perfect love.”
One thing that still seems prevalent in the Church today is an “either it’s God or it’s not” mentality. Truth is, all of us see in part, and every movement, ministry, and individual believer is in the process of growth in the knowledge of God. The easiest thing to do in this process is to recognize the gaps and inconsistencies in other saints, and to write them off for those gaps.
This is unfortunately far from the Pauline view of the Church. Do we know of anyone besides Jesus Himself who was more jealous than Paul for the salvation of Israel, the maturation of the Church, and the glorification of God in the earth? Paul is, aside from Christ, the great NT prototype for foundational leadership, and his disposition toward the churches (even the most immature communities) was quite antithetical to the views of the “stand-offish” critic.
The situation at Corinth was the clearest example of this. Paul was dealing with a community of believers who had immorality in their midst, who were fraught with jealousies, divisions and schisms, who had very disorderly gatherings, whose meetings were doing “more harm than good,” who were doubting his own apostleship, and who were having issues and doubts regarding the reality of the resurrection. Have you ever run into a community of believers in that rough of a condition? Seriously.
In Chapter 11 if 1 Cor. Paul even states that sickness and premature death has broken out in their midst as a judgment from the Father for their lack of value for the Body in the context of the meal of the Lord. Judgment is breaking out in their midst, and Paul has the audacity (or should it be called an apostolic faith and sight?) to address them as “saints” and “holy ones” in the opening of the epistle.
A friend of mine just paid my way roundtrip to visit Bethel Church in Redding. He was so moved by the Lord upon a few visits that he was convinced he needed to fly me up there. After prayerful consideration, I believed it to be in the mind of the Lord.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I’ve carried a fervent, and highly serious jealousy for spiritual maturity in the Church, true revival, community, and the recovery of the centrality of Christ for over 12 years now. Some of the men who are referred to positively on these blogs are friends of mine, even fathers in the faith to me (and one was a “grandfather” in the faith to me before he passed away recently).
Now I can say without flinching that there are things at Bethel (and in various modern movements for that matter) that I am in strong disagreement with. I nearly came out of my seat during one of the sermons on my last visit, I felt it was so off base (it was not Bill Johnson, by the way). I do have some concerns about different angles, views and methods at Bethel.
In all candor, however, when I hear statements like this one from an above post, my spirit is grieved:
“I have not took the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there.”
It doesn’t matter how much certain expressions “get under our skin”, even issues that are true issues of concern. If we cannot go to the cross, even on behalf of those who are “white-washed tombs”, we are not expressing the wisdom of Christ. We are called to express the same reality in the present that Jesus revealed at the cross.
My visit to Bethel was of course a mixture. I must ask, however, would it be a mixture if I visited your home lives? Your churches? Your secret lives? Would it be a mixture if you visited my personal way of living? If you visited the fellowship I’ve planted here in Kansas City? Is there any church or work that is expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ yet?
While I had concerns for certain things in Redding, the Lord still used those saints to speak some significant things to my heart and life. I’ve not been engaged much in the area of “personal prophecy”, but a few of the brothers and sisters there had very timely, specific, and significant words to share with me. My heart was quickened by the Spirit for the labor to which He has called me in Kansas City. Thankfully, I had the grace to look past some of the “concerns”, to receive from the Lord.
“Isn’t it a bad well, though?” you ask.
Well, was Corinth? Paul never doubted the validity of their spiritual gifts, did he? He simply challenged them to get things into order, and I believe they were off in a lot more ways that Bethel.
I look at all of us through the lens of Paul in the context of Corinth. Did he address issues that needed challenging? Yes, as one sent to them, he did. Would Paul have criticized the church at Corinth on a blog that was mostly viewed by folks with the same critical views? I highly doubt it. He addressed those with whom he had immediate responsibility and relationship as an apostle, and aside from that he was occupied with seeing the Gospel revealed to hearts who were bound in darkness.
Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.
The Body of Jesus is mangled at present, and there is not much in that Body that we may look upon with a sense of completion. We need the sight of Joseph of Arimathea, a man of “high-position” who was able to go against the tide of bitterness, self-righteousness, and unbelief which flowed so powerfully through his religious colleagues. He was able to look upon that Body, mangled though it was, and to VALUE it, though it had not yet appeared in resurrection glory.
“It takes half a man to criticize,” said Sankey, who was Moody’s worship leader. It takes the resurrection life within to look upon the Body of Christ as Jesus presently is from the right hand of the Father.
Shall we be jealous for fullness? For a purging of bad teachings and doctrines? For a maturity to come to the Church again? Most assuredly. We must. But the only way for that maturity and depth to be restored in the last analysis is for us to go to the cross ourselves.
The mystery of Israel is the revelation that God is a God of mercy, and that His people are simply those who have received the grace to come under the rod of His Fatherhood and governance. When we think we’ve earned anything, we’ve removed ourselves from the grounds of the Gospel. If I realize that I haven’t earned anything (including insight into Scriptures or maturity of vision), I have the grace to look at the Church- in all of its various deficiencies- and to thank God for it, while crying out for mercy on Her behalf.
I want to be found in the counsel of the Lord, friends. He’s more jealous for the fullness of Christ than any of us. He’s wanting to raise up foundational servants, who will proclaim His heart to Israel and the nations. The Church does need to be called to repentance. The Church does need a higher vision of the standards of God. Ultimately, we need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God” Himself. That Word will only come from broken-hearted vessels who have been united with Him in the Holy Place.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of this. There is no one more jealous for truth, purity, reality, and fullness than Him. And the way He set out to establish that was by laying His own life down for the very ones who were crucifying Him. He continues to demonstrate that today, interceding from the right hand of Majesty. Shall we follow Him, or a bag of opinions and ideals?
O, for the Spirit and nature of Christ Himself to permeate our lives today.
Florence Vall // May 10, 2009 at 4:50 pm |
All I can say is WOW. You are one, in very few, that I can read and smile. Thank you for your fellowship.
iseeitdifferently // August 8, 2008 at 11:51 pm |
Wow…
I think that what you just did was unpack brother Wigglesworth’s single sentence and gave it a skeleton, sinews and flesh. I pray that the Breath would make it stand up in us.
And a side note; Paul said in the first chapter of 1 Cor. that they lacked no spiritual gift. He didn’t say that it was counterfeit but that they didn’t have it rightly functioning. “The spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets”.
But my own fear is that folks seem to love the mixed part of a thing more than the real part of a thing and….ah well, I’ve talked about that ad nauseum.
But you’re right, there’s an attitude to have about this that for far too long has been lacking, hence the above tabs and their labels. God did to me what Smith Wigglesworth said; he turned my “discernment” on me and my marriage, fathering and all other things, the greatest of which being an attitude that reeked. Once I got a revelation of God’s tolerance of my mixed life and how over the years He’s brought me through and out of so much of it, it was hard to keep that chip on my shoulder.
I’m still just as concerned as I ever was and have the same views and stuff, but hopefully an apostolic love is growing up in me that will help me dish out those concerns with a more Pauline spirit, which is to say a Christlike spirit.
Thanks Bryan. You saying stuff like this to me publicly and privately (“this is lengthy but neccessary” ) has been a huge help and was actually the beginning of the end of ill spirited tirades. I’m torn between deleting it all or just going back over it and softening it.
I’m still too busy to even entertain that idea. Life is just way too full.
Grace and peace,
mark jr.
Cajun Jew // August 12, 2008 at 12:27 am |
Bryan,
I enjoyed your post it was both convicting and enlightening. I have a question based on one of the comments you made:
“Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.”
In light of the destructive things currently going on in the body (i.e. Todd Bentley,etc…) you being a discerning Man of God would you characterize Todd Bentley as just immature or just incomplete in doctrine? How much worst would a ministry have to get to characterize it as a counterfeit? (I know this comment was probably more aimed at post regarding Bethel, Kansas City, etc…)
Paul himself publicly named names in the book of Timothy and criticized those who had gone astray. Do we just need to handle this type of issue as we would an immature part of the body of Christ or do we need to rise up with boldness and expose the DANGEROUS and DESTRUCTIVE error of this fringe group of the prophetic movement?
(When I say dangerous and destructive I am referring to the fact that it does not raise up disciples that devour the Word of God and bear fruit of a mature Christian. Instead you have a multitude of immature Christians who instead of seeking the Word they are running around all over chasing signs and wonders. I could write pages more but that is enough.)
Bryan Purtle // August 16, 2008 at 9:10 pm |
“Cajun Jew”,
I will give you what will likely be an unsatisfying answer. Whatever you do or say, do it in faith, humility, love, and the fear of the Lord. Do it in light of the Cross, in light of the coming Judge, in light of the Presence of God, and in light of the Scriptures.
The manner in which we view other souls (believing or unbelieving) has everything to do with our standing before God at the judgment seat, and Jesus said that the “second” commandment was “like the first.”
I have not the release from the Lord at this point to speak directly about Todd Bentley. I would only say that I believe Christ is interceding for him at the right hand of the Father. Indeed, the recent exposures are a mercy from God, in hopes that he might be brought onto the grounds of truth, reality and wholeness. Regardless of what I feel about his life and ministry, the Lord has glorious intentions for the man, and my highest hopes are that these recent events will help to lead him to a place in God that he never knew was available.
Oswald Chambers wisely noted that the Lord often shows us shortcomings and faults in others, and that the vast majority of the time it is for the purpose of intercession. There may be a time when you or I will be called by the Lord to speak out directly against “the dangerous and destructive” (as I myself have when under His direct leading), but until we are in the same place of priestly intercession that Jesus Himself is in, we are ourselves “dangerous and destructive”.
The sword of truth, when wielded without the Spirit and love of Jesus Himself, produces a premature and chaotic battle, and the ones found wielding it in that manner are underdeveloped & unprepared soldiers.
It is not enough to have a doctrine regarding mercy, we must be MEN OF MERCY. Such a Man is Christ Himself, and when the time comes for Him to deal out retribution, there is perfect justice and clear vision throughout.
The only safe place, then, is to abide with Him, hearing and following His counsel. Without abiding in Him in reality, we can do nothing.
Grace to You, friend.
Bryan
Florence Vall // May 10, 2009 at 4:58 pm |
You are really amazing. I love your writings. I just read Romans 2 and was thinking the exact same way. That is the goal of our hearts. To think the way Jesus did. With love and compassion. IT is in the bible…We have the mind of Christ. Just knowing that mind is the beginnging. KNOWING…Depart from me you never “knew” me. Do we really desire to KNOW Christ, or just get the power. But the power is love the most powerful thing in eternity. GOD IS LOVE 1 John
sclough // August 20, 2008 at 12:44 pm |
I just have to say I believe Bryan has added some of the best and most mature comments I’ve seen in a while. Thanks for sharing, Bryan.
iseeitdifferently // August 21, 2008 at 11:12 pm |
Yeah, he’s good for that.
Cajun Jew // August 22, 2008 at 2:18 pm |
Does anyone have any insight into the eschatology views of Art Katz concerning Israel. I keep hearing him talking about the destruction of the current Israel and the rebirth. Apparently this is vastly different than the traditional church teachings on the subject. He keeps talking about the time of Jacob’s trouble. I have yet to find a teaching by him that is in depth on the subject. I realize that this teaching actually sounds a little off, but because it is Art Katz I am willing to hear him out on this and I would like to know what Scriptures he uses etc…
peace,
Daniel
Bryan Purtle // August 22, 2008 at 4:40 pm |
Daniel,
Nice to know your name…and it’s a GREAT name, brother.
Actually, there are a host of messages on artkatzministries.org where he touches on the subject. Look for messages that have key phrases like “Jacob’s Trouble” or “Last days’ flight”, etc. You can also get a hold of his book, “The Holocaust: Where Was God?” His more exhaustive book the eschatological implications of Jacob’s Trouble & Israel’s Destiny is in the works right now. It’s called, “The Mystery of Israel”. I don’t know when it will be released (it used to be available to read for free online, but I don’t know if that’s still the case).
Because Art provoked me to open my heart in this area over 7 years ago (4 years after I ignored his message on Israel in ‘97!), I’ve spent a considerable amount of time looking into the Scriptures along these lines myself. It has been a painstaking, heart-wrenching, yet glorious journey thus far. I’d be glad to dialogue with you one on one in these regards, if you’d like. Do let me know, brother.
Grace,
BP
Bryan Purtle // August 22, 2008 at 4:42 pm |
Here’s one message, The Time of Jacob’s Trouble:
http://artkatzministries.org/the-time-of-jacobs-trouble/
Bryan Purtle // August 22, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
Here’s another applicable article by Reggie Kelly, who is kind of the “community-formed” resident theologian at Ben Israel. Art was in harmony on almost all points with Reggie, especially in terms of eschatological Israel:
http://www.zionchristianpress.org/reggiekelly/Articles/Prophetic_Call_to_Practical_Preparation_HOME.html
Bryan Purtle // August 22, 2008 at 7:17 pm |
By the way, brother, what specifically sounds “off” to you in his message?
Blessings,
BP
voiceoftherevolution // August 22, 2008 at 9:17 pm |
Bryan,
I have been taught the “usual” or “traditional” understanding that the rebirth was in 1948. What I understood from Art was that the rebirth has actually yet to take place, the current Israel must be destroyed.
If you could please email me at truth.disciple@gmail.com, I will listen to the messages soon, but if you could send me some specific Scriptures that I could look at, that would be great.
peace,
Daniel
-Daniel
Bryan Purtle // August 22, 2008 at 10:17 pm |
I’ll email you ASAP, bro.
Mary B. // August 22, 2008 at 10:26 pm |
Bryan Purtle,
With all due respect, teachers are to be held responsible for what they teach and are to be held to a higher standard. It’s not the teacher but what they teach that we are to judge. I just don’t understand your rational with that kind of thinking.
Bryan Purtle // August 23, 2008 at 7:21 pm |
Which rational are you speaking of, Mary?
Blessings,
BP
Bill Fawcett // August 31, 2008 at 1:05 am |
>we need to rise up with boldness and expose the DANGEROUS and DESTRUCTIVE error of this fringe group of the prophetic movement?
Cajun,
We do need to rise up. They teach and believe the Manifested Sons of God heresy. Thnak God it is being exposed.
>the Lord has glorious intentions for the man
Bryan,
What is that supposed to mean? and how do you know that? Or are you just referring to Jeremiah 29:11 in a generic way?
-Bill Fawcett
Bryan Purtle // August 31, 2008 at 4:01 pm |
Bill,
It means precisely what it says, brother. Even if I was merely “referring to Jeremiah 29.11 in a generic way”, wouldn’t that be enough to extend mercy, hoping for the best in Todd Bentley’s life? This is not an endorsement of his decisions and doctrines, it is Sermon on the Mount 101. I have high hopes that the Lord’s intentions for his life are realized. I hope the same for you. While we all have the ability to reject what the Lord has offered, it’s quite a distortion of Kingdom values for us to lack mercy toward a brother in his weakness and failure (Gal. 6).
Grace to You,
BP
Samuel Sheridan // August 31, 2008 at 4:28 pm |
Amen Bryan,
I pray earnestly that Todd will repent and turn to God. That is the greatest thing to hope for.
beyondgrace // September 1, 2008 at 5:28 pm |
Oh, just like he had for Joseph Smith and Jim Jones. Sorry, my bad.
Sometimes I get God’s “intentions” and his “foreknowledge” confused.
Was God mocked when Reverend Bentley spoke of his “accountability team” a few months ago? Or how about this statement from Reverend Bentley
“Many come and some do manifest fleshly things, but for the most part, everyone is sincere and of good intention at a revival. Trust it’s better to be full of life with a little untidiness than to be dead.”
I guess it was C. Peter Wagner who called him a liar and a deciever.
Yeah, it would be pretty cool to see him repent. But I hope, for his sake, that he never fills a pulpit again.
-Bill
iseeitdifferently // September 1, 2008 at 6:18 pm |
I think I know what Bryan’s talking about. I believe God has intentions for every human and Todd is one of them.
And yes, He had intentions for Jim Jones and Joseph Smith and they are agonizing eternally for the want of the opportunity to fulfill thier callings.
Heck, I bet Hitler had a calling. Every human is called to fellowship, discipleship and obedience in Christ. That’s God’s intention for all humanity. He does everything short of being Augustinian in His way of bringing it about. Everyone has to go one way or another at the respective forks in the road and will weep and gnash their teeth forever or dance for joy forever.
I actually am seriously seeking God for Todd’s totall restoration in Christ; life, doctrine, practice and preaching. Nothing is impossible with God, but with man (I should say “mere” man) nothing is going to change. Think of how usefull he could be with this stuff in his past and Reality in his present and future! How many more people might he be able to help come into a truly prophetic/apostolic lifestyle, having himself been quite false and being much more able to spot its onset?
I’m hopeful in prayer for it. Sure he blew it, and has been for years. Doesn’t have to end there and I pray it doesn’t.
There’s lotsa folks we all know (and we ourselves might be them) who came away from the silliness and fakery by the Grace of God. He’s still in the business of Grace and Truth, restoration and re-commissioning. If He can’t do it for Todd, He can’t do it for me and in fact has not and will not do it for any of you.
Be carefull how you judge. Jesus said to make sure it was “righteous judgment”. If we judge in our hearts that Todd should never fill a pulpit again, I don’t think we judge rightly. I mean shoot, if he’s gonna do the same junk then yeah, I hope he doesn’t preach again; but if God can make him into a vessel for noble purposes….
Well, that’s my two peso’s…
bpurtle7 // September 1, 2008 at 11:09 pm |
Good word, Mark.
I love to hear the heart of a brother who is maintaining a jealousy for truth and reality, while holding out and extending mercy in faithful hopes that “all might come to repentance” and in due season be restored to a place of ministry before the Lord.
This is, I believe, in keeping with the very heart of Christ.
bpurtle7 // September 1, 2008 at 11:20 pm |
One more thing, I’d like to second your thoughts above. Think of how significant of a work of God that would be, to bring a brother out of public moral failures, distorted doctrines, and ministerial excesses and eventually into a place a mature living and service to the Body.
Most believers would’ve written Peter off at the denial, David at his affair and homicidal involvement, Elijah at his fearful flight from Jezebel, and the list could go on. Clearly, the Lord Himself is much more jealous for restoration than His own people have been.
If Todd never came around and allowed the Lord to bring restoration to his life, that would rest on him. I do fear for him if things came to that place. But as the people of God, we have every responsibility to hold to the truth, seek to restore a brother in meekness and love, and hope and pray for God’s best on his behalf. I believe that this is the very heart of the Son of God, who “ever liveth to make intercession” on behalf of all of us. O, how we all need mercy, friends.
Bill Fawcett // September 2, 2008 at 1:23 am |
Bryan,
Mercy is an area where I could certainly grow. In the name of mercy I will ignore your snide use of the word “brother” in your response above.
I get weary with deception (telling others to lie for him) and even the lame excuses for taking time off in July when many of us knew something else was going on.
I get weary with preachers who think they can “manifest their fleshly anointing” on others and continue to serve God. I’ve been in the cmatic/pcostal movement longer than say Mark Jr., or probably you have been alive, and I’ve seen a lot. One of my first pastors, one who prayed for my infant child with hydrocephalus was just a few year’s later snapping towels with Jim Baaker in the sauna at PTL in Fort Mills. As far as I know, he is still reprobate. Jacob was physically healed but still bears the scars of charismatic abuse.
I think C. Peter Wagner, a man who is involved in this fiasco for the body of Christ, hit it squarely on the head when he stated “I am delighted that they are not buying into typical charismatic soft morality, also called “greasy grace” or “don’t
touch God’s anointed” or “mercy must triumph over judgment,” phrases that have been used on other similar occasions as convenient religious
cop-out excuses.
The typical charismatic reaction to blatent sin is to see that person “restored to ministry.” Well, you see, I am one of those people who does not believe that God is so short handed that he needs to restore someone who has mocked him so blatently to “ministry.” You think he cannot raise someone else up? In Todd’s case, he not only would have to get rid of the unfaithfullness, the drunkenness, the arrogance and the lying, but there would have to be a major “realignment” of doctrine.
Chuck Pierce, Wagner, and others have indicated that the emphasis must be on restoring Todd, not restoring his ministry.
This whole “restoring to ministry” thing needs to be re-evaluated. How many time will Paul Cain be “restored to ministry?” And it seems like the professional restorers line up to claim they are the one that restored him. Again, is God in that much need of help?
I frankly think that the Lord would be MORE glorified if some of the fallen ministers would get a real job, laying bricks or spraying bugs, and serving tables at church dinners. Trust must be earned, it can’t be gained with a few sessions with John “Elijah House” Sandford.
So that’s where I’m coming from.
Now, if I might add, when you said “the Lord has glorious intentions for the man” and I said “What is that supposed to mean?” I think you made a knee- jerk reaction. Hear me out.
I seriously wanted to know what that meant, as in did God give you a word or something. ‘Cause I do believe he can speak, but not with the nonsense like at Todd’s coronation.
Now I’m not going to play the “my prophecy is better than your prophecy” game, but a few hours before the Bentley scandal was revealed to me revealed (August 12) I remember watching the video of Todd Bentley at Fort Mills (August 8). I saw him preach again his heretical Manifested Sons of God message, more forcefully than he had on May 28. I was sickened. I thought “God, this has got to end” and was immediatley impressed that it would indeed end by mental breakdown or moral failure. A few hours later the news started trickling thoughout the internet. Within a week or too we knew that it had ended by both mental breakdown AND moral failure.
Was that God speaking to me? Perhaps. Does that imply that God had less than “glorioius plans” for Todd? Perhaps. You you understand my perplexity. It’s like I missed the memo or something.
We both can proof-text God’s plans for man. I could cite Isaiah 2:11 (one of Bob Gladstone’s favorites) as a future indicator for Todd, if he remains unrepentant. The bottom line is we can speak generically of God’s glorious intentions for Todd, but Todd is really the one who will set the path. I think we would all prefer that he repent.
I may look mercyless towards the players of the prophetic/signs and wonders movement but it is hard to be passive when you see hundreds of thousands of gullible people being ripped off by liars and decievers. Desiring justice is a Godly trait, and I can’t apologize for that.
-Bill Fawcett
bpurtle7 // September 2, 2008 at 4:02 am |
Bill,
I am sorry if my usage of the term ‘brother’ came across in a snide manner. I was truthfully seeking to identify you as a member of the Body. There is much that can be misconstrued when communicating through writing.
So you know, I share many of your concerns for the modern movements, and I have for over a decade. That may not be as long as you have, but I want you to know that I’ve no desire to see a superficial restoration on any level. My primary desire for restoration in Todd’s situation had everything to do with his own personal life, and only in an eventual and secondary manner did it have to do with a restoration to ministry. Indeed, in my own view (which is limited, of course), I believe that if the Lord brought about a restoration to public ministry in his life, it would look radically different from what he has functioned in heretofore.
I only say that so you know that I’m not hoping for restoration in a faddish manner, or so that things could appear successful again. I’m jealous for reality, and for that reason I pray for Todd Bentley and hope for restoration.
My issue with stand-offish, critical saints (and I’m not placing you in this category) can be put thusly:
What Kingdom advancement has been effected in Todd Bentley’s life, or the lives of his followers, by posting negative blogs or articles about him and his “ministry”? It’s one thing to have a mandate from the Lord to weed out bad teachings from the lives of those to whom the Lord has given us responsibility, especially if we see that those teachings are profoundly affecting the saints for the negative.
It’s quite another thing to slander, belittle, and demean a man, even if he is radically immature, fallen morally, and teaching unbiblical doctrine. If the Lord calls us to expose bad teachings (and I believe He does!), it can only be from a heart-posture of humility and meekness, knowing that we too see in part. Boldness? Courage? Unswerving Biblical certainty? Yes. But it must be a display of mercy at the same time.
Brother (and I mean that sincerely!), you may be surprised to see how many points of concern we are in harmony on. I ache for you, and for the many thousands who have been duped and scarred by situations and leaders in the charismatic movement over the years (though believers in all circles and streams have experienced similar tragedies).
Truthfully, the reason I speak generically about Todd Bentley is because I don’t know the man. I’ve not been set in place to bring correction to him, at least not at this point. And while I have strong disagreements with the so-called “manifest sons of God” teachings, and various other issues with many other movements, I have run into only a few saints from within my circle of influence who even know what these teachings are, let alone those who are actually adhering to them.
I’ve met more saints on the Reformed side of the faith who are riddled with replacement theology than I have run into charismatics who are adamant on some of Todd’s distorted teachings. My only point in saying that is, I’m going to address believers face to face, when I know the Lord has given me a place to speak to them. I’m not going to write a blog with multiple articles declaring how the seeds of anti-semitism are still alive in the Reformed camp. Chances are, most of the saints who would need to hear about that will never get on my blog. I would run the risk of creating a subculture of a few embittered folks, who would get onto my blog to comment over and over again on how the Calvinist guys have blown it.
I think the replacement theology issue is huge, yet I’m concerned to communicate in the right Spirit and in the right context.
If you knew me, and of course we’ve only now met (albeit informally), you would know that I have never been in favor of many of the so-called “restorations” that have taken place, some of which you mentioned above. I have long been concerned for the souls of some of these men. Yet and still, I’ve found it my primary calling when I think upon them, to ask the Lord to show mercy, to open their eyes, to bring about an authentic restoration. You commented:
“The typical charismatic reaction to blatent sin is to see that person “restored to ministry.” Well, you see, I am one of those people who does not believe that God is so short handed that he needs to restore someone who has mocked him so blatently to “ministry.” You think he cannot raise someone else up? In Todd’s case, he not only would have to get rid of the unfaithfullness, the drunkenness, the arrogance and the lying, but there would have to be a major “realignment” of doctrine.”
I appreciate your statement about the common knee-jerk reaction to see someone “restored to ministry.” Premature appointment to ministry is one of the greatest tragedies in the western Church, charismatic or not. Premature “restorations” are just as tragic. Even so, while I would not approve of the “knee-jerk” reaction to restore someone to ministry, the opposite extreme of completely writing someone’s future off is just as unbiblical and imbalanced. If I had any involvement in the actual matter, I would not see to Todd’s restoration to a leadership position in the Church unless his life met the requirements given in the Pastoral Epistles, the timing was right, and it bore witness with a group of leaders and believers with whom he was experiencing real life with.
But to write him off as permanently disqualified? This is hardly desiring justice. If that were the case, every man besides Christ Himself would be disqualified from service in the Kingdom. That is justice, indeed. Yet the Father, in His “kind intentions”, has grafted us into His eternal Kingdom. The cross was the ultimate expression of justice.
It’s one thing to adopt a “greasy grace” mentality and say, “Well, it really doesn’t matter what happened. You’re gifted, brother. Give it a few months and we’ll have you back in the limelight.” Yet that whole picture is distorted.
It’s quite another thing to have a jealousy for God’s work to be done in a man’s life.
You also stated:
“Was that God speaking to me? Perhaps. Does that imply that God had less than “glorioius plans” for Todd? Perhaps. You you understand my perplexity. It’s like I missed the memo or something.”
I rewind again to the thoughts of Oswald Chambers in this subject. His statement was that when the Lord shows you the faults or shortcomings of another man, the majority of the time it is for the purpose of intercession on his behalf. In other words, unless He gave you express and explicit instruction to EXPOSE a man’s sin (which in the most Biblical sense would first be a face to face address with the man in sin, secondly to those who he was negatively effecting in a direct sense), He is likely calling you to pray for the man. This doesn’t imply that His intentions for the man were less than glorious. It shows all the more that God is pursuing Todd Bentley, and He is willing to go to stretching and humiliating lengths to awaken his heart. The exposure of our falsities and depravity is a mercy, not a closed door. If we hear His voice in it, it becomes a gateway to reality and liberty in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Of course, “Todd is really the one who will set the path.” Ultimately, for his own life and standing before the Lord, it comes down to whether or not he will respond to the grace that has been offered him. But there is a reason why the apostles encouraged us to pray for one another in the church, or “all men” for that matter. We are co-laborers with Christ, and it matters how we extend ourselves in prayer and service on behalf of one another. Well, this is long enough for now.
I appreciate your unwillingness to settle for feigned restorations and distorted teachings. You’re not the only one who carries these concerns. Let’s be sure, however, that the way in which we are viewing other brothers (or even enemies) is in keeping with the love that has been shed abroad in our hearts by the work of the cross.
Regards,
BP
Bill Fawcett // September 2, 2008 at 1:02 pm |
> I have run into only a few saints from within my circle of influence who even know what these teachings are, let alone those who are actually adhering to them.
Well, thus makes it all the more dangerous- the c’matic tendancy to move away from doctrine, and just preach unity. Why can’t we all just love Jesus? Yet the errant teachings sneak in, become established, and the next thing you know is thay are accepted by all.
Even Steven Strader recently boasted of the great Latter Rain movement, apparently ignorant of his denomination’s stand against that.
So you’ve just described my mission statement- to educate those under charismatic tyranny to the doctrinal problems and help people escape.
This may require some rather direct talk, but it seems necessary. Others will be moved towards intercession – that’s a good thing.
A few months ago people were saying “If it is of God, it will stand, but if it is not, it will fail.” Now that it has failed, many are saying that is was because of some Christian curse that the naysayers spoke over Todd. I didn’t curse Todd, Todd made his own bed .
Patricia King is teaching this on video on her website- that Todd’s fall was because people spoke badly of him.
As to the reformed stuff, I probably agree with you on most of that, but its not my axe to grind. I have intimate knowledge of all things charismatic, and have met many of the key players, and this seems to be where I am right now.
-Bill
Bill Fawcett // September 2, 2008 at 1:33 pm |
I might add that my heart is moved in compassion for all the people that we, in one way or another, duped by this false revival.
How many families with severely ill or crippled children suffered untold anguish trying to figure out of they should charter an ambulance plane and fly to Lakeland. How many others made the trip, only to be relegated to the back rows, while carefully selected persons were seated in wheelchairs and brought to the stage?
I know people who were affected.
My righteous indignation make me want to kick over the ATM machines at the entrance.
And its not over, because Todd Bentley’s meetings are only a blatent example of crap going on everywhere.
Fresh Fire purchased a half-millon dollar bachelor pad in Lakeland. When are they going to sell that, and offer refunds to the thousands that were duped? I’ve not heard anyone talk about Restitution.
You want to hear righteous indignation? Check out Rob “the Lakeland Prophet” Deluca’s sermon from last sunday. He gets pretty darn angry at about 33:00.
http://www.hiswaychurch.com/assets/church_sermons/Addressing_Lakeland.mp3
You know its odd, too , that everyone is so concerned about Todd Bentley’s “restoration” but I’ve not heard anyone suggest that we pray for his girlfriend or that she repent. So maybe it really is all about Todd.
bpurtle7 // September 2, 2008 at 5:09 pm |
Bill,
I want you know that I’m not ignoring your response, but I’m being restrained by the Lord from going further here. May the God of Israel bless you in all ways.
Regards,
BP
Cajun Jew // September 11, 2008 at 9:22 pm |
Does anyone care to share their favorite Art Katz messages. I find that all of his messages hit home, however there are some that are just “life changing”. So far my favorite message that I have heard was when he was only 10 years old in the Lord it is:
“The Fire of God”
bpurtle7 // September 12, 2008 at 3:18 am |
“To God Be Glory In the Church”
“The Apostolic Church”
“The Knowledge of the Holy”
“The Potter”
“Martyrdom”
“Seek Not the Favor of Men”
“True Fellowship” (set)
Two messages I don’t have the titles to. One is on the spirit of Simeon & Anna, and the other is on Ephesians 3.10
There are some of my favorites.
Brian K // September 12, 2008 at 4:11 pm |
Mark,
I came here from American Pentecost and have been lurking for a few months now. I hope all is well with your family.
I am asking permission to post some of the comments Bryan and you made on the Art Katz post over ar Revival School. They were some of the most balanced and Godly writing I have read on the subject. You see we have many people who have just come out of some of this stream and are pretty vehement in their postings and balance is needed.
If you do not allow it I will heed your direction.
Keep the faith.
Brian
iseeitdifferently // September 12, 2008 at 11:22 pm |
I’m okay with it. Bryan will answer for himself, though I’m sure he’d not mind.
My favorite messages from Art are:
Strange Fire 1&2
True Foundations
His Testimony is on YouTube.
Anything with the words “prophetic” and “apostolic” in it.
Love Your Enemies
What If?
mark jr.
bpurtle7 // September 14, 2008 at 6:41 pm |
Here is a wonderful quote from Art’s forthcoming booklet:
“Any revival or awakening in God’s people must be accompanied by an appreciation for the Holiness of God. How many of us know the holiness I am referring to? We have a great repository in Scripture in the books of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Numbers that clearly defines a Holy God and a Holy people. I look for a Last Days’ people, a remnant people of God, who have that same press upon their spirits as the plate that pressed against the forehead of Aaron, ‘Holiness to the Lord;’ a people who are conscious always of what they say and what they do as being before a Holy Judge. Such a jealous regard for the Holiness of God has been lost to us. This revelation is a provision from God, and if it is deeply inscribed upon our hearts, it will be a safeguard against the cheap and flimsy age in which we live.” -Katz, “The Anatomy of Deception”
Sean Brouillet // October 5, 2008 at 7:31 pm |
I have loved reading much of this conversation. I had an opportunity to hear Art Katz at FIRE Church three times. the first being “seek not the approval of men” and the “strange Fire” messages. I have never ever heard preaching that held such spiritual weight and authority in them as this before. These messages have truly re-set my paradigm into how to live in honor of a truly holy God. By far though my favorite message of his was from a series called “testimony of Jesus” and the message was called “against false prophets”. It was, for me, the most true message pertaining to true prophetic.
It was cool to hear that some here attend FIRE Church. I am currently in school there.
Sean B
Bill Fawcett // October 11, 2008 at 3:34 pm |
Heh.
I thought Dr. Brown’s recent message on “no short cuts” was a good ‘un as well.
-Bill