February 9, 2008...11:00 pm
Art Katz’s New Website.
At least it’s new to me. I just found it today. I clicked on an article from Ben Israel and it turned into the site that is now being maintained to preserve his life’s teachings and corrective words to much of charismatic christendom.
As most of you know, he’s my hero as far as men on earth are concerned. He was the guy that finally articulated with actual words what I had been feeling in my gut for years in my christian experience in the charismatic and prophetic (so-called) movements. I finally understood why I just couldn’t go along with so much stuff, even though my mind was often unfruitful as to why.
I highly commend his ministry. Look for his testimony for starters. The way that God apprehended the man is phenomenal.
Art Katz Ministries
mark jr.
26 Comments
February 10, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Did you know that Art Katz once said of Paul Cain:
“That man is a prophet of God”… “He lold me secrets of my heart which no man could possibly know!” (David Pyches, Some Say It Thundered, (Oliver-Nelson: Nashville, Th.), 1991, p.81
Hmmmm.
February 10, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Yeah, but you should hear what he had to say about him specifically in a sermon I heard once.
Art made those statements many years before “the lights came on”, so to speak. If you see his statements recently about this movement as compared to his first encounter with it….well, the tune changed dramatically. He called them false prophets and in the Ben Israel schools he named them all by name.
I once thought these men were real prophets for the same reasons.
mark jr.
February 10, 2008 at 10:47 pm
The funny thing is that the old statement resurfaces from time to time.
My wife saw Paul Cain down at Mahesh’s church one time. Being spiritually dense she just thought he was creepy. In retrospect, the natural reaction was correct.
-Willie
February 10, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Yeah, someone did that a long time ago on the SOJ. It’s like they now he’s the real thing (as close to it as it gets as far as I’ve seen and heard) and use his very old statements to back up what they know he put down. It’s just not honest for them to do this.
Your wife wasn’t dense, sounds like she was dead on.
mark jr.
February 11, 2008 at 12:21 am
She was at TACF for most of a week and had to listen to Jim Goll blather on endlessly about his “dreams,” which was his concept of “teaching.” Eventually she went back to the hotel room and just read her bible.
February 17, 2008 at 4:19 am
Hi!
The website is new….it’s actually still under construction so I am surprised that is is posted already. We are trying to preserve the legacy of my father, the words he gave forth and present it in a world wide format so that others can obtain from what we who knew him were so fortunate to see and hear while he was still alive.
Blessings to you all.
Sissie
(Art’s daughter)
February 17, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Sissie,
Thank You. I didn’t know who your father was until I started to blog here. I have been very blessed and spiritually enriched to have access to his articles. He is deeply missed.
February 17, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Sissie,
I’m greatly honored for you to have dropped by here. I loved your dad very much. He is, so far, the single most influential man in my life. I’m glad you guys are putting up this site for the preservation of his legacy….or rather the Lord’s legacy through him.
Blessings to you,
mark jr.
February 18, 2008 at 4:06 am
This would have blessed him as he felt he had many spiritual children and he loved them all. Keep this up. It’s great! We are planning a reunion the last week of June if anyone wants to make plans to come up to Northern Minnesota!
Sissie
February 18, 2008 at 2:39 pm
There have been many people who have fallen and yet God used them in varied ways.
There was the Prophet Balaam who was mentioned as “only speaking what God had to say” and not what kings and others wanted to hear. The problem came later when he succombed to the lust of money.
Of course we shouldn’t forget about David who was “a man after God’s own heart”, yet he too fell into lust for another man’s wife and then had the man killed, yet David was the one whom was God’s selected line for the Branch [Jesus] to come from.
Samson was a mighty man of strength and right living whom had been dedicated to God from birth. Yet he broke his vow to God and therefore his covenant because of the seduction of a woman. Even then God still was able to give Samson a second chance and allowed him to regain his strength to destroy the enemy.
There are more than these! My point is God is a forgiving God and is sovereign in that HE will use even those that others don’t see fit or worthy of their calling. If God sees fit to use someone that we wouldn’t, then who is man to judge?
I have heard Paul Cain speak last October in Columbia SC. All I can say is he preached the word from The Word. He spoke with trembling lips at first, but as The Spirit came over him, and you could visibly see the change, he spoke as one with great love for the Word and for The Father. This was one of the first times he spoke after his fall and subsequent restoration.
That is the kind of God I serve and love with all my heart. Why? Because we have all fallen short of His Glory, but HE is quick to forgive and Love us still.
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
March 8, 2008 at 12:04 am
But his heart isn’t right…
acts 8:13-23
Has Paul Cain repented? Maybe you can get an unbiased opinion from me, because I don’t know who Paul Cain or any of those prophetic guys or whatever are or what they did really….
I’m not saying he has repented, or that you should even post a reply to this comment.
Because I’m tired of this argument, you can post these things on the Gruen interview thing i think, or w/e
If you must, I have sinned, I’ve done these things, Mark knows, but he doesn’t ignore me and tell me I have no place in any kind of ministry at all, and that i should just “retire” or w/e lol…. But he knows how I feel about my sin, i don’t just brush off the conviction and continue to live in it (now anyways..)
Maybe you should listen to the sermon “the error of Balaam” by Keith Green… at sermon index…
Just try not to reply to this.. i don’t wanna argue… lol…
And yeah, I’ve yet to go to the site, I haven’t listened to much of art katz i found his sermons hard to understand…
But I will soon…
I mean i have listened to a few sermons… so yeah….
i’m gonna stop rambling, it’s awesome to see you here “sissie”
March 8, 2008 at 12:09 am
My sentiments are on the Gruen page.
If this thread goes off the deep end as the other one did, I’ll have to stop this one to and I’d rather not have to.
mark jr.
March 10, 2008 at 3:19 am
Paul Cain is a straight up G.
March 12, 2008 at 12:21 am
Shut up Brandon…
March 30, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Hi,
I appreciate your blogs. Though I do not even know whether I agree with you (or should) , specifically, with respect to Bethel Chuch’s prophetic ministry, I would like to get your perspectives on some of the issues I have been dealing with. First, I am a huge Art Katz fan. Though it feels like I am getting kicked in the teeth every time I hear his sermons, I just can’t seem to stop listening to them. (By the way, Art Katz Ministry.org website no longer works. Do you know what happened? I still have lots of sermons left to download!!)
Past 6 years have been the most difficult times of my life, and it was only through God’s grace and love I have been able to stand up and continue on this difficult journey, which I would not discuss in great detail here. Ever since God “yanked me” back to his side again 6 years ago, my desire to live for Christ has been steadily growing. It is my sincere prayer and desire to have an unfailing spritual discernment lest I may backslide again.
Ravi Zacharias and Chuck Swindoll had always been my favorite bible teachers before I heard one of Art Katz’s sermons. As you know, they’re not exactly in the charismatic movement. But the thing is that I never gave speaking in tougues, signs, and wonders a chance despite the fact that they were clearly some of the manifestations of the gift of the holy spirit in the first century church. In fact, Art Katz, too, received the baptism of the holy spirit and the gift of tougues (as you probably know, Art talks about them in his book, Ben Israel: Odyssey of a Modern Jew, page 147, bottom of 3rd para).
I had always been hurt and disappointed the church and by the chuch in my history of walk with Christ. It is no exaggeration to state that I had never felt the kind of true fellowship that Art spoke of in his sermon, “True Fellowship.” Almost all of the Christian brothers and sisters I had known in the past were very reluctant to talk about theological issues, spiritual issues, etc, during social gathering times. I had never formed a true friendship with any confessing Christians in my whole life.
Then I came across this one partcular church in my state. Art Katz gave a couple of sermons there a few years ago. This church is in the charismatic/revival movement. One of the leaders there is someone I have a great respect for, and it was because of him, I started going there. In fact, Art Katz spoke highly of him in one of his sermons (”Seek not honor from men, but from God”). I recently attended a conference this church hosted, where Kris Vollaton from Bethel Church was invited as a guest speaker. Coming from Presbyterian church, I was completely new to the charismatic worship style and all the other prophetic and healing stuff. But what I felt during the worship and prayer at the conference….was real. This…inexplicable sense of galvanization of the spirit….it was real to me. Though I would have much preferred hearing God’s voice calling my name as He did to Art, I truly felt something really powerful there. In addition, some of the people there I spoke to and prayed with showed such genuine warmth and caring to me. It was something I had never experienced anywhere else. I felt as though I was witnessing the true reflection of the body of Christ. This church’s moto is becoming the “salt and light” of the nations. It is not only involved in “Treasure Hunting” like ministry, but also, sends its people everywhere in the world to spread the gospel. I’ve been feeling compelled to love and accept this chuch, though I am still not used to the charismatic stuff. I was so scared the other day that I wept and cried out to God, “please tell me this is real, Lord. Is this love and intimacy I sense from this particlar body of Christ real?” I’m ever more convinced now that it is real. Ever since the conference, the words in Psalm 119 started to reap out of the pages, and I became much stronger resisting certain sins in my life. These people are not just “Sunday buddies.” They show interests in me and wish to build a relationship with me. I am deeply touched by their love.
So, here are my questions to you. Do you believe that Bethel Church’s prophetic ministry is a heretic? Do you believe that Bill Johnson and Kris Vollaton are false prophets? Do you believe that this church I’ve come to adore is making a lethal error by associating itself with Bethel?
I would really appreciate your kind reply. Thank you for reading my long post with much patience.
-A sheep with the spirit of Thomas
March 31, 2008 at 1:03 am
Thomas,
Keep checking back on this blog. Mark has some family matters to attend to and I don’t know if he is blogging too much these days. But when he has the time I’m sure he’s love to answer your questions.
Blessings to you-
March 31, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Try this
http://www.benisrael.org/
March 31, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Dear Mark:
I just learned from one of your comments that you go to FIRE church!!!! The church that I mentioned above is FIRE church. So, what’s your opinion on Bethel now since Fire Church ostensibly associated itself with Bethel? One of the brothers there shared with everyone during the service about his “Treasure Hunting” evangelism last week. Listen, I’m not trying to push you to the corner of contradiction. I, too, am very disturbed by other more easily discernable false prophets such as Benny Hinn. But since you know a lot about all the behind the scenes of Bethel and its ministry, aren’t you concerned that now Fire has adopted some of its prophetic techniques?
Listen, I didn’t agree with everything Kris Valloton said at the Kingdom Conference, but, I just can’t imagine he is just another Benny Hinn.
March 31, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Well, I have been meaning to get around to posting on what Kris preached on Sunday. As I said in another post, most of it was pretty awesome and I intend to major on those points, however I won’t ignore some of the things that I kinda got bothered by. Something about “loving ourselves” that made me almost gag…I don’t know…
But maybe you saw me, my wife and two kids up there getting prayed for before the last song in worship? Jen is the one with the mass in the left side of her brain.
Kris and Bill LOVE Benny Hinn, they’re like homies and stuff. And as far as I know, FIRE hasn’t “adopted” Bethel’s prophetic sylings….at least I never heard that. I know they’re all about being a living demonstration of the kingdom of God in the real world and that may mean prophesying to a stranger, which I have no issue against….
…and yeah, I was kinda tripped out by the linking of arms between the two bodies, but I know that there are some very important things that Bethel stands for that we want to at FIRE as well….and really, they seem to always have stood for those things. I’m not a FIRE spokesman though….
You know what though….I’ll just email you and leave you my number. Let’s have dinner and gab.
And as far as your revelation of the Body of Christ is concerned, I absolutely must validate that claim with my whole heart. I’ve never, EVER witnessed or experienced this kind of fellowship. Dear Lord….my prayer group buddies and homegirls just bless our families socks off…..I could go on and on. I really love these people.
Overall, I’m not concerned about the “link up”. Maybe I should be….I am a little worried that some will imbibe that church’s prophetic teachings, i.e. “how to be prophetic”. It’s scary how they teach people to “be” prophetic. It could be placed alongside the TV talk show pyschic’s, for all intents and purposes.
So maybe I am a little concerned….I don’t know. I’m still in process of talking these things out with friends of mine at FIRE and will be talking these things over with my pastor Scott….and who knows, maybe I can get Bob’s ear too.
Yeah….we’ll have to hook up and stuff cuz now I’m doing the rambling on this blog that I’d rather do face to face….
Nice to have hooked up with you bro!
mark jr.
April 7, 2008 at 5:46 pm
OK, I’ll Weigh in on Chris. Recently he spoke at God’s Place in Ogden UT. I had always heard about people who equate God’s (logos) Word with stale manna, but when I heard it, it felt like a punch in the gut.
He’s a good speaker, and (mis) uses the scriptures, but is IMHO theologically warped.
Here’s a few highlights from his message:
(parenthesis mine).
“What you know can keep you from what you need to know.”
“Its not what God said, but what God is saying, that is food to our souls.”
There is another dimension of God which most Christians seldom experience, and that is the intoxicating presence of God that Jesus describes as wine, so that when God comes in that dimension you begin to think out of your self, outside of yourself
And so we (leaders) have an obligation to define reality; we have an obligation to find the current (rhema) word of God so that we don’t get irrelevant to the world.
He also suggests that there will be peace on earth BEFORE the return of the Lord. “Religion causes war, but the kingdom stops it.” (Dominion theology)
“If we don’t stay current with God (rhema word) than what happens…?
“I Think we need to go from catepillar to butterfly. I think we need to stop getting our information from the dirt (logos word).”
Goes on to talk about Apostolic mission, the “city church” concept. And the need for Apostles.
‘The Lord says” There is an epic season change. We are moving from denominationalism to apostleships. Ask me what that means.” I said “What does that mean?” He said “(in) Denominationalism people divide over what they agree on. And he said, I’m about to pour out NEW REVELATION THAT THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE. I’m about to open up the vaults of heaven and reveal mysteries and secrets that have been hidden for the eaons of ages, even the angels don’t know what I’m about to tell the world.” ‘
He Goes on to call denominations concuibines, and those saved in denominational churches bastards.
-Bill
April 7, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Uh, Kris, not Chris.
April 7, 2008 at 8:38 pm
My, my, my!!!
Just gets worse and worse doesn’t it?
Before long we will have a one world religion, all a mixture of different religions and made up from non-biblical interpretations, BUT, then maybe it will hasten the true return of Jesus.
Should I get ready to head for the hills?
April 7, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Wow.
Yeah, it’ll still be a while before I get to the stuff I heard him talk about when he was out here.
Some very good….some really bothersome. I have a feeling that (perhaps) he was on his guard because of who he was around. I don’t know….but I’ll get to it someday.
mark jr.
April 8, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Mark,
Yeah I figgered got other things on your mind. I liked a lot of what he had to say, and as I said he was a very good speaker. But listening closely, I was quite bothered with the attitude toward the written Word of God, and the need to supplant, or suppliment it with “fresh revelation.” Disturbed- because I know how inaccurate the “fresh revelation” often is.
He also very strongly suggested that God will not move for those (my words) “who don’t get it.”
More specifically, he stated that the angels were ready to move on our behalf, but would not respond to our prayers until they were contexed in the restoration of the Apostolic.
Just the usual BS from the Apostolic/Prophetic movement as far as I am concerned.
As a comfirmation to my thesis, I listened to 45 minutes of personal prophecy that he gave. Predictable, the crowd went ga-ga over the first word, which was about a large sum of money coming to an individual.
I’m sorry, that isn’t authentic Chritianity. No way.
-Bill
April 13, 2008 at 5:49 am
Dear Bill:
I am surprised by what Kris said in UT assuming your recollection is accurate. It doesn’t sound like him. Ever since the Kingdom Conference in NC, I’ve downloaded a couple of sermons of Bill Johnson and Kris on Itune. I am still very cautious and keep my guard on when I listen to them. But I’ll have to admit that a lot them made sense.
I clearly remember Kris’s call for apostleship speech at the conference. The main point was that we believers must impact our cities and country so that the world may see Christ in us just as Jesus called us to become salt and light of the world. If we are not raising our voice against abortion, homosexuality, and all these diabolical things in the world, we are in fact losing our identity as salt or light. It’s about impacting the nations with God’s goodness and commands without any compromise.
I didn’t see anything wrong with this view. The churches (most of them in the US) that are not active in communicating with leadership in the cities or states regarding poverty, homosexuality, abortion, etc, resemble so much the churches during the 60s Civil Rights movements. I remember reading a letter from a major church leader to Martin Luther King about how African-Americans should just let go of the issue and let God bring His justice. Basically, let’s put everything in God’s hand and not do anything about these ungodly things that are going on in our country. Let’s be obedient to the authority as the scripture says. That’s a nothing more than a cop-out. The German churches pretty much all succumb to the Nazi propagenda. They were indeed “obedient” to the authority. Look what happened? When the church is silent and loses its call for a true apostlehip to bring God’s love and justice to the world, awful things happen.
I truly believe in my heart that being a follower of Yeshua is not all about being kind and giving money to poor kids in Africa. It’s much easier to be kind and generous all the time to your non-believing neighbors without getting involved in the “touchy” subjects. That’s not what carrying your own cross is about. Jesus sought honor from God, not from men. If we play safe and just be kind and generous, being a Christian is pretty easy. I don’t think there is a cross to carry with that kind of mindset. Kindness and generosity are something even the world approves of. You will receive honor from men. But speaking out against abortion, homosexuality, and any of moral turpitudes that God abhors, but the world accepts and tolerates, can cost us reputation, friends, or maybe even jobs!! Who’s got the guts and courage to do that? Who stood up against the racial inequality, but why not homosexuality and abortion? Because we are afraid that we may lose honor and respect from men!!! We care little about honor from God. This is the state of our church. Who’s got the guts to address this issue? Your local presbyterian or methodist preachers on nice sunny day on Sunday?
April 13, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Thomas,
The most spirit filled church I was ever in was a presbyterian church. Not all demoninational churches are spiritually dead.
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