The boys over at The Greycoats have been in contact with Ernie Gruen and have asked him some very important and precise questions that need to be dealt with.
If you’re an adherent to IHOP then you owe it to yourself to view these things.
I recommend their recent post which has the above mentioned interview.
This isn’t done with animosity but a real desire for truth to be told. It really is neccessary. Try your hardest to NOT react to this and spill forth emotional defenses of a beloved ministry out of a knee-jerk reaction. Try actually reading the Gruen report and Bickle’s renunciation of Cain that you will find hyperlinked in the interview.
mark jr.
33 responses so far ↓
Brandon // February 17, 2008 at 7:24 am
Define ihop please….
International house of pancakes does nothing for me
But now that i think of it i remember you and Sam mentioning International house of prayer…
I guess this is way too over my head, I have never even been all that pentecostal. I have no idea what most of this is referring to, but this Paul Cain guy seams pretty crazy, Art Katz said he was a prophet of God, and now he’s a homosexual???
Does this mean people can lose their salvation, or does this mean the entire time this man has been demon possessed and communing with demons and Art Katz couldn’t see it?
Call me retarded if you want, but this stuff is way over my head, my back hurts, and now my brain kinda hurts from reading all these big words
aberrant, clairvoyant, exonerate, recant…
Gosh, it’s almost like they purposely make this stuff hard to understand…..
iseeitdifferently // February 17, 2008 at 11:03 pm
They do try to muddy the waters.
And as I said in a comment recently, I believed these guys were prophets too. I don’t fault Art for having been sorta…..’tricked’. It happens to the best of us. And as I said before, if you listen to Art’s sermons and read books of his since the 80’s (when he made that comment) you’ll see a different man with a different perspective and you’ll see how God brought him through that.
mark jr.
Brandon // February 18, 2008 at 7:06 am
does this mean this man “Paul Cain” is possessed or something?
Or has he just turned from God?
How would he know these things?
lbolm // February 18, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Brandon,
There have been many people who have fallen and yet God used them in varied ways.
There was the Prophet Balaam who was mentioned as “only speaking what God had to say” and not what kings and others wanted to hear. The problem came later when he succombed to the lust of money.
Of course we shouldn’t forget about David who was “a man after God’s own heart”, yet he too fell into lust for another man’s wife and then had the man killed, yet David was the one whom was God’s selected line for the Branch [Jesus] to come from.
Samson was a mighty man of strength and right living whom had been dedicated to God from birth. Yet he broke his vow to God and therefore his covenant because of the seduction of a woman. Even then God still was able to give Samson a second chance and allowed him to regain his strength to destroy the enemy.
There are more than these! My point is God is a forgiving God and is sovereign in that HE will use even those that others don’t see fit or worthy of their calling. If God sees fit to use someone that we wouldn’t, then who is man to judge?
I have heard Paul Cain speak last October in Columbia SC. All I can say is he preached the word from The Word. He spoke with trembling lips at first, but as The Spirit came over him, and you could visibly see the change, he spoke as one with great love for the Word and for The Father. This was one of the first times he spoke after his fall and subsequent restoration.
That is the kind of God I serve and love with all my heart. Why? Because we have all fallen short of His Glory, but HE is quick to forgive and Love us still.
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
Bill // February 18, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Here’s the math:
Jake says Paul Cain has his, and therefore, God’s endorsement.
Jake says “If God sees fit to use someone that we wouldn’t, then who is man to judge?”
Obvioiusly the discussion is over.
-Bill
lbolm // February 18, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Bill,
I didn’t say I had endorsed anyone! You are saying something I didn’t say! I only spoke about what I saw and heard in one evening.
God is the only one who promotes and sets things in motion for His purposes.
Tim H // February 18, 2008 at 8:17 pm
How come the clocks on these responses are so off. It is the 18th where I am and its only 12:18pm noon, yet you guys are posting at 6:19pm and 7:59 pm.
Bill // February 18, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Sorry Jake, I’ll try again
Here’s the math:
Jake implied that Paul Cain has his, and therefore, God’s endorsement.
(”All I can say is he preached the word from The Word. He spoke with trembling lips at first, but as The Spirit came over him, and you could visibly see the change, he spoke as one with great love for the Word and for The Father.” >
followed by
Jake says “If God sees fit to use someone that we wouldn’t, then who is man to judge?”
Obvioiusly the discussion is over.
The point being is man CAN judge, and especially someone like Paul Cain who has sodomized young men after stating publically that God has removed all sexual desire from him.
Even before this episode, the foundation of Paul Cain’s ministry is quite gnostic. In plain english, he’s a freaky mystic.
It would have not been unreasonable to see him retire and fade away. If he continues to minister, his ministry will continue to be looked at carefully.
-Bill
lbolm // February 18, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Bill,
“It would have not been unreasonable to see him retire and fade away. If he continues to minister, his ministry will continue to be looked at carefully.”
All in the Ministry should be looked at carefully.
My door is open anytime!
Mary // February 18, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I think one reaches the point where they cross the line (sodomy, requirements for women to strip to get a word) and forfeit any kind of integrity and rites to minister amongst God’s body of believers. Not that I think Paul Cain ever had any qualifications. I don’t know…….I think Paul Gowdy makes some convincing arguments for cessationism. Did he ever serve any jail time? The thing is he is wack. That is his legacy he will leave. He is a pervert and has damaged the name of Christ. I can’t believe anyone would listen to the man speak. He should be behind bars and on a sexual offenders list.
Mary // February 18, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Hey,
I was talking about Paul Cain when I asked if he served any jail time and being a pervert, not Paul Gowdy.
lbolm // February 18, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Mary wrote;
” He is a pervert and has damaged the name of Christ. I can’t believe anyone would listen to the man speak. He should be behind bars and on a sexual offenders list.”
First off Mary, I think Christ is quite able to defend His name.
Second, did you read my reply to Brandon?
How is it that “”everyone is ready for the God of Wrath for everyone else, But Lord have mercy on me”".
Go ahead and pick up your stones, why don’t you.
Who among you have not sinned ?
thegreycoats // February 18, 2008 at 10:38 pm
i have sinned for sure. and dont want the everlasting wrath of my father to fall on anyone. however a little accountability would be nice from time to time. we just cant get it done with christian reletivism ilbolm balaam was a pagan seer not a godly prophet. thats why the angel was gonna kill him. thats why the angel warned him to act right. he was already on his way to curse isreal for money and his name means son of baal. context context context my man. any way i dont want them damned i want them removed from ministry and repentent . so that mercy might come. and we might all be healed.
iseeitdifferently // February 18, 2008 at 10:45 pm
DANG!!!
I guess I should have called this “The Much Awaited Paul Cain Argument” or something.
Try to stay on course guys.
And I have to admit, telling of visions of Jesus touching you on the chest so as to remove ALL sexual impulse only to end up degrading the male human bodie’s normal use is suspect and all his former ministry must be held in suspicion. An ability to ‘read mail’ is not God’s stamp of approval, especially when it comes from a well that dishes out the most horrible and unbiblical doctrines I’ve ever heard preached.
I think it’s hard for us to really believe that it’s possible for folks to have trippy spiritual abilities and seem christian and yet not be. It’s like we shrink back from it because it’s so hard of a truth to swallow as even being possible. But’s it’s good for our own souls to accept it as possible and even likely in these days we live in.
So having thrown in my two cents, maybe we could drop Paul Cain and move on.
mark jr.
thegreycoats // February 18, 2008 at 11:58 pm
amen
natrimony // February 19, 2008 at 1:44 am
Hello from thegreycoats@wordpress.com,
I think Jake’s knee just jerked. Balaam is the worst possible example to lead off with to support absolution for prophetic failings. His activity and role in redemption history really works against your main point. Balaam was a pagan witch-doctor who practiced divination. The entire narrative recounting the fact that the Living God used him to speak is structured as a polemic against Baal (pagan deities), the powers of this world (kings, and rulers), and the natural world (think talking donkey). To use him as an example of upright prophetic giftedness is a perversion of the text. Balaam is not an OT example he is an OT object lesson.
I’m sure that our interview with Gruen is confrontational to your presuppositions. It would certainly challenge me if I were a Charismatic pastor. However, eisegesis is not the answer.
lbolm // February 19, 2008 at 4:24 pm
The whole point to my reply was about the Grace and Mercy of God The Father. When you can get that Revelation, then maybe we have something else to discuss.
Mark jr, these comments were not meant toward you, but to those who appear to be on a witchhunt with stones in their hands ready to throw at every thing that is in any way shape or form indifferent to their agenda!!
Mark jr, keep up the good work, I do enjoy your words and points.
Tim H // February 19, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Lbolm,
Well thank the Lord my salvation isn’t dependent on whether or not I accept these people as “prophets” or “apostles” and I don’t have to be involved in their ministry. My walk with the Lord isn’t dependent on what they say or do or teach. And I don’t think I am missing out on anything because of that. God is still big in MY life and Jesus will come back someday with the blast of the trumpet as he comes in the clouds. His word IS truth.
Halleluia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mary // February 19, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Sorry Mark Jr., I just have to add this,
Jake, you missed the point. It’s not because the man fell. REAL men of God who fall humbly give up the pulpit for the honor of Christ because they understand they have lost the right to preach, teach, what have you. No one is doing any favors to the church by looking the other way.
natrimony // February 20, 2008 at 1:45 am
Jake,
Our witch-hunts usually involve torches and pitchforks–not stones. Although, our agenda might allow for their use. Hmmmm….stones. I like it! I’ll talk to the other guys and get back to you.
-N
thegreycoats@wordpress.com
lbolm // February 20, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Mary,
I am not defending Paul Cain’s actions. The things he did were wrong and sinful. Yes anyone who is in the ministry who has been proven to have done wrong should step down from that role.
That is exactly what Paul Cain did and underwent and is still undergoing a restoration process that included people who would help him mentaly as well as people who monitor his actions and words.
He has a man, that is in the group set up to monitor him, that travels with him and reports back to that group on his progress.
NOW, I am not going to say anymore about this subject as you missed my entire point of my post.
GOD is willing and able to accept ALL who has fallen and comes to him with a repentive heart. The Apostle Paul tells us that no man can judge the heart of God . If God sees fit to forgive you, me, or whomever, then we should be willing to accept His judgement. Whether or not a man has truly repentented and made peace with God is between God and that person. HIS Love and HIS ways are not the ways of man. Thank you Holy Father for Your Grace and Mercy!!
Love in Christ Jesus
Jake
natrimony // February 21, 2008 at 5:36 am
Jake,
Stones are only o.k. if they are either flint or obsidian. There will be no granite or limestone used and marble is right out. Thought you would like to know.
–N
thegreycoats@wordpress.com
lbolm // February 21, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Nat,
I will not clutter Mark jr site with replies to your apparent antagonistic comments to me .
If you feel you have to continue these things, then please do so at my sight or yours, or better yet by email.
In Christ Jesus
Jake
natrimony // February 22, 2008 at 12:20 am
Jake,
Mark jr. is a big boy. He can moderate his own site. Get a sense of humor.
iseeitdifferently // February 22, 2008 at 12:39 am
*steps into room, looks around*
*see’s posts and banterings*
*begins to take off belt*
“Don’t make me use this!!”
My dad, when me and my brothers were growing up, would hear the three of us making noise in the room and griping and stuff….then he’d barge in with his belt in his hand spank all of us no matter who was to blame. It was jacked, but it kept us from doing stuff like that very often.
So then, everybody….quit it.
…please, play nice. I don’t wanna have to tell anyone anything…so let’s just drop the torches, stones….and stuff.
Aight?
mark jr.
Brandon // February 26, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Who who is without sin cast the first stone
So only jesus could have stoned her if he wanted
But i digress
MARK, it’s been a week, come on, for awhile it was every week new blog for me to read…
Sorry, just had to say it, blog me up, bro
Brandon // February 27, 2008 at 5:56 am
Oh, and about the huge retarded argument with no apparent biblical foundation
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
When you claim something is biblical try and back it up with the bible, copy paste is awesome, but physically looking it up and typing it is awesome as well
Out of context but read for yourself “boys and girls”
lol
Not to continue the argument… there’s not much arguing with scripture… read it for yourself, try just arguing with your bible, it’s a bit difficult, but i’m sure a lot of people do it..
or argue with God *guilty*
Bryan Purtle // March 5, 2008 at 8:25 am
This is a rather unfortunate series of statements. I wonder if anyone here has considered their calling to cry out for mercy on behalf of the men who have fallen. I believe the heart of the Lord weeps when we speak so mercilessly of one another. I’m not excusing anyone’s immoral actions. I’m asking about our own hearts.
Mark, I don’t know if you’re aware of what transpired on Art’s last two visits to IHOP, but it might be wise (even if you still carry the same views of the movement) to remove his name from the equation. I’d be glad to discuss it, as one who has lived in Kansas City for almost 30 years.
Grace and peace,
Bryan
iseeitdifferently // March 6, 2008 at 12:22 am
I agree Bryan. I was trying to curb much of this discussion….I honestly didn’t desire a big ‘ol thing over Paul Cain.
And the only thing I know about Art in all this (and I didn’t try to bring him into this but only answer a question) are his own words on a few CD’s I have. And I asked a certain gentleman from B.I. about it some time ago and was told (while Art was still alive) pretty much what I put up there earlier….and this was right around the time of his last couple of visits to IHOP.
I’m not trying to play chess with alleged prophetic figures….I was just trying to clear up some questions. And I’m pretty sure his last two visits are on sermon index dot net under the title of “Becoming a Prophetic Church”.
Anyhow, if you wanted to call me to tell that stuff or write it here, either way is cool. I don’t have that cell phone number anymore; it was a company phone and I just changed jobs recently.
mark jr.
Bryan Purtle // March 6, 2008 at 5:17 am
Hey bro,
Actually “Becoming a Prophetic Church” was from his first visit (2004). He spoke for an entire week on that one. On the last visit (which was in 2006) he spoke on Isaiah 6 and lambasted the congregation of IHOP with sharp words. But the next day, after having visited with some of the leaders and students more intimately, he began his message by publicly repenting for the sharpness of his speech the first day, saying that he had not run into such a qualitative group of saints in any recent time in America (I was myself shocked by his statements!). I was in a house church meeting with him a few days later wherein he spoke very highly of what the Lord was doing at IHOP (in fact, the only other interested souls in the city who came to the meeting were prayer and worship leaders from the IHOP). He spoke very highly of Mike Bickle and the brothers there as well on that night. This does not mean he automatically adhered to everything that has transpired over the history of the modern prophetic movement, it simply means he felt to bless that work and those leaders, and he did with great clarity.
If he held concerns as radically as some who have posted here, he certainly set them aside or had a change of heart for the last year or two of his life. In point of fact, I’ve probably listened to over 300 of his messages, read all of his books, and you know some of my personal history with him. I know many of the things that he was concerned about, and hardly any of them are even touched or expressed nowadays by IHOP. There chief emphases are intimacy with God, prayer/fasting, the issue of Israel, a recovery of true apostolic preaching, and the end of the age (Much of it is not very far from the message Art carried all those years). I have relationship with some of the teachers there (which Reggie Kelly and Art both encouraged me to develop on their last visit).
My only point is, there are a lot of folks posting things here who have little clue what really goes on there, and are using Art as a funnel for their own personal vendettas. This is not wise or in keeping with the Spirit that Paul called us to have toward all men- especially those who are in the faith (however immature or incomplete).
Since you are at FIRE, it may be good to talk to Bob G. and Michael Brown (who are-it appears- going to be visiting IHOP in a few months). Of course Scott knew Art very much as well. I’ve spoken with Bob about many things in this context, and believe his views would be very helpful.
Above all, I bless you man. I deeply enjoyed our last conversation and I look forward to the next opportunity to hear from your heart.
Grace upon grace,
Bryan
Brandon // March 6, 2008 at 5:47 am
“My only point is, there are a lot of folks posting things here who have little clue what really goes on there, and are using Art as a funnel for their own personal vendettas.”
Ok, i have no idea what really goes on “there”
I don’t get it, are bethel and IHOP the same? even remotely?
I really have no clue what is going on, I just asked Mark to make more blogs and posted two bible verses…
Personally if this guy Paul Cain or whoever the heck it was sinned, the bible says he should be publicly rebuked for it, eh? And we should forgive him, who here hasn’t sinned
It’s all a bit complex, I figured you couldn’t go wrong with posting bible verses up on here…
Sorry for my naive..ness…
So are Bethel and Ihop one in the same, or what?
I feel hecka dumb for asking, but me and my mom were gonna check out Bethel for ourselves sometime…. Cuz we hear alot of stuff about it…
Bryan Purtle // March 6, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Are Bethel and IHOP one in the same?
No, Bethel is in Redding, CA and IHOP is in Kansas City. They are two separate ministries with different leaders and their own unique emphases.
Bethel focuses more on faith, life in the Spirit, and the miraculous.
IHOP focuses primarily on those things I listed above.
I have found both to be refreshingly focused on Jesus Himself.
iseeitdifferently // March 8, 2008 at 12:06 am
In an effort to eliminate the continuation of a discussion about stuff that isn’t really related to the interview with Ernie Gruen, I think I’m gonna close off the comments. Perhaps I should have run it that way to begin with. I had no intentions of dialogue, really….just wanted folks to have an opportunity to read some things that I believe are important to know about; especially the rumor about recanting and what not, along with the other idea that Gruen’s adulterous fall was immediately seen after this report came out. Usually folks throw that out as if it negates what he documented for several years. It doesn’t, even if it was true, but it isn’t and people need to know this.
The things said about Paul Cain were technically true, yet they seem to me to have been spoken in serious hostility that was beyond the scope of a Christ honoring stating of facts. If he has repented and his sin is a ‘past tense’ issue, then I can’t say that he is a ‘present tense’ pervert nor should anyone else.
Yes he preached bizarre and false doctrines…no, actually he preached these doctrines claiming prophetic revelation…which in my book makes it worse than just miscalculating the meaning of passages of scripture, but I digress. I say this only so that I don’t get questions about wether I “endorse” the man. I don’t and can’t. However, I find nothing edifying at all about the way he was handled here.
I also think that they way Jake was badgered was entirely unneccesary. If Jake mishandled the bible then call him on that, but all the jokes about stones and torches….it was antagonistic and ill spirited and I’m sorry I didn’t deal with it last week when it was happening. Well, I did, but I was nice about it because I didn’t want to possibly ruffle the feathers of friends of mine or embarrass anyone. I still haven’t named names….but you should know what and who I’m refering to.
So Jake, I apologize to you for being quiet and nice when it was time to be vocal and perhaps more abrupt.
The rest of you, who I love dearly….
…please, let’s be confrontational. Let’s be controversial. Let’s NOT be conducting ourselves out of a wrong spirit. There has to be a way to do this….it’s all over the bible. No, I’m not suggesting never saying anything ever or even being abrasive when it’s needed….but make sure all you do and say doesn’t disturb the peace of God which is to rule our hearts in all things done and said (typed).
And to throw out one last thing, after many numerous trips the Bethel Church I believe there are many there who love the Lord and desire to live Godly lives in Christ. I also believe that there is a severely myopic view of ‘ministry’. I know this because I worked with some folks from there who told us to “never talk about sin or hell, just love them and speak healing into them.” THAT is sin!!! So while I agree that many love Jesus and wish to do for Him out of a sincere desire for His glory, I also know firsthand that something is tragically wrong with what they believe the church is supposed to say to the lost. They won’t even allow the words, “sinners” or “lost”. They make you call them “pre-christians”. I’m not calling anyone a pre-christian if I know they are a monster of iniquity who loves their sin and hates God with every ounce of flesh that they indulge in. So I respectfully disagree with my dear brother’s assesment that they are “refreshingly focused on Jesus”. They are focused on parts of truth’s and not all that Truth entails and requires, especially where it requires a prophetic stature that calls the world what it is and makes known that Jesus stands “with a pardon in one hand and a sword in the other”, as Charles Finney used to say. A ministry without a sword is impotent.
This is much more than I intended to say.
A summary:
Read the Ernie Gruen Report. Pray for Paul Cain and Bob Jones. Pray for the folks at Bethel. Pray for IHOP. Pray for yourselves and me. Be watchful.
Confront sin and sinners but don’t antagonize and “ha ha” at brothers in the Body, no matter how wrong they handle the bible.
And if you don’t like me now….
…*shrugs shoulders*…
I ain’t mad, like, at all. Really. I just think that in our zeal it’s easy to discover truth’s we didn’t know about and get an attitude over it.
AND I HAVE BEEN THE WORST.
That’s why it’s easy for me to see.
With much love, fear and trembling,
mark jr.
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