Comments on: The Much Awaited Ernie Gruen Interview

By: iseeitdifferently

iseeitdifferently — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:06:45 +0000

In an effort to eliminate the continuation of a discussion about stuff that isn’t really related to the interview with Ernie Gruen, I think I’m gonna close off the comments. Perhaps I should have run it that way to begin with. I had no intentions of dialogue, really….just wanted folks to have an opportunity to read some things that I believe are important to know about; especially the rumor about recanting and what not, along with the other idea that Gruen’s adulterous fall was immediately seen after this report came out. Usually folks throw that out as if it negates what he documented for several years. It doesn’t, even if it was true, but it isn’t and people need to know this.

The things said about Paul Cain were technically true, yet they seem to me to have been spoken in serious hostility that was beyond the scope of a Christ honoring stating of facts. If he has repented and his sin is a ‘past tense’ issue, then I can’t say that he is a ‘present tense’ pervert nor should anyone else.
Yes he preached bizarre and false doctrines…no, actually he preached these doctrines claiming prophetic revelation…which in my book makes it worse than just miscalculating the meaning of passages of scripture, but I digress. I say this only so that I don’t get questions about wether I “endorse” the man. I don’t and can’t. However, I find nothing edifying at all about the way he was handled here.

I also think that they way Jake was badgered was entirely unneccesary. If Jake mishandled the bible then call him on that, but all the jokes about stones and torches….it was antagonistic and ill spirited and I’m sorry I didn’t deal with it last week when it was happening. Well, I did, but I was nice about it because I didn’t want to possibly ruffle the feathers of friends of mine or embarrass anyone. I still haven’t named names….but you should know what and who I’m refering to.

So Jake, I apologize to you for being quiet and nice when it was time to be vocal and perhaps more abrupt.

The rest of you, who I love dearly….

…please, let’s be confrontational. Let’s be controversial. Let’s NOT be conducting ourselves out of a wrong spirit. There has to be a way to do this….it’s all over the bible. No, I’m not suggesting never saying anything ever or even being abrasive when it’s needed….but make sure all you do and say doesn’t disturb the peace of God which is to rule our hearts in all things done and said (typed).

And to throw out one last thing, after many numerous trips the Bethel Church I believe there are many there who love the Lord and desire to live Godly lives in Christ. I also believe that there is a severely myopic view of ‘ministry’. I know this because I worked with some folks from there who told us to “never talk about sin or hell, just love them and speak healing into them.” THAT is sin!!! So while I agree that many love Jesus and wish to do for Him out of a sincere desire for His glory, I also know firsthand that something is tragically wrong with what they believe the church is supposed to say to the lost. They won’t even allow the words, “sinners” or “lost”. They make you call them “pre-christians”. I’m not calling anyone a pre-christian if I know they are a monster of iniquity who loves their sin and hates God with every ounce of flesh that they indulge in. So I respectfully disagree with my dear brother’s assesment that they are “refreshingly focused on Jesus”. They are focused on parts of truth’s and not all that Truth entails and requires, especially where it requires a prophetic stature that calls the world what it is and makes known that Jesus stands “with a pardon in one hand and a sword in the other”, as Charles Finney used to say. A ministry without a sword is impotent.

This is much more than I intended to say.

A summary:
Read the Ernie Gruen Report. Pray for Paul Cain and Bob Jones. Pray for the folks at Bethel. Pray for IHOP. Pray for yourselves and me. Be watchful.
Confront sin and sinners but don’t antagonize and “ha ha” at brothers in the Body, no matter how wrong they handle the bible.

And if you don’t like me now….

…*shrugs shoulders*…

I ain’t mad, like, at all. Really. I just think that in our zeal it’s easy to discover truth’s we didn’t know about and get an attitude over it.
AND I HAVE BEEN THE WORST.

That’s why it’s easy for me to see.
With much love, fear and trembling,
mark jr.

By: Bryan Purtle

Bryan Purtle — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:10:14 +0000

Are Bethel and IHOP one in the same?
No, Bethel is in Redding, CA and IHOP is in Kansas City. They are two separate ministries with different leaders and their own unique emphases.

Bethel focuses more on faith, life in the Spirit, and the miraculous.

IHOP focuses primarily on those things I listed above.

I have found both to be refreshingly focused on Jesus Himself.

By: Brandon

Brandon — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 05:47:06 +0000

“My only point is, there are a lot of folks posting things here who have little clue what really goes on there, and are using Art as a funnel for their own personal vendettas.”

Ok, i have no idea what really goes on “there”

I don’t get it, are bethel and IHOP the same? even remotely?

I really have no clue what is going on, I just asked Mark to make more blogs and posted two bible verses…

Personally if this guy Paul Cain or whoever the heck it was sinned, the bible says he should be publicly rebuked for it, eh? And we should forgive him, who here hasn’t sinned

It’s all a bit complex, I figured you couldn’t go wrong with posting bible verses up on here…

Sorry for my naive..ness…

So are Bethel and Ihop one in the same, or what?

I feel hecka dumb for asking, but me and my mom were gonna check out Bethel for ourselves sometime…. Cuz we hear alot of stuff about it…

By: Bryan Purtle

Bryan Purtle — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 05:17:41 +0000

Hey bro,
Actually “Becoming a Prophetic Church” was from his first visit (2004). He spoke for an entire week on that one. On the last visit (which was in 2006) he spoke on Isaiah 6 and lambasted the congregation of IHOP with sharp words. But the next day, after having visited with some of the leaders and students more intimately, he began his message by publicly repenting for the sharpness of his speech the first day, saying that he had not run into such a qualitative group of saints in any recent time in America (I was myself shocked by his statements!). I was in a house church meeting with him a few days later wherein he spoke very highly of what the Lord was doing at IHOP (in fact, the only other interested souls in the city who came to the meeting were prayer and worship leaders from the IHOP). He spoke very highly of Mike Bickle and the brothers there as well on that night. This does not mean he automatically adhered to everything that has transpired over the history of the modern prophetic movement, it simply means he felt to bless that work and those leaders, and he did with great clarity.
If he held concerns as radically as some who have posted here, he certainly set them aside or had a change of heart for the last year or two of his life. In point of fact, I’ve probably listened to over 300 of his messages, read all of his books, and you know some of my personal history with him. I know many of the things that he was concerned about, and hardly any of them are even touched or expressed nowadays by IHOP. There chief emphases are intimacy with God, prayer/fasting, the issue of Israel, a recovery of true apostolic preaching, and the end of the age (Much of it is not very far from the message Art carried all those years). I have relationship with some of the teachers there (which Reggie Kelly and Art both encouraged me to develop on their last visit).
My only point is, there are a lot of folks posting things here who have little clue what really goes on there, and are using Art as a funnel for their own personal vendettas. This is not wise or in keeping with the Spirit that Paul called us to have toward all men- especially those who are in the faith (however immature or incomplete).
Since you are at FIRE, it may be good to talk to Bob G. and Michael Brown (who are-it appears- going to be visiting IHOP in a few months). Of course Scott knew Art very much as well. I’ve spoken with Bob about many things in this context, and believe his views would be very helpful.
Above all, I bless you man. I deeply enjoyed our last conversation and I look forward to the next opportunity to hear from your heart.
Grace upon grace,
Bryan

By: iseeitdifferently

iseeitdifferently — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 00:22:55 +0000

I agree Bryan. I was trying to curb much of this discussion….I honestly didn’t desire a big ‘ol thing over Paul Cain.
And the only thing I know about Art in all this (and I didn’t try to bring him into this but only answer a question) are his own words on a few CD’s I have. And I asked a certain gentleman from B.I. about it some time ago and was told (while Art was still alive) pretty much what I put up there earlier….and this was right around the time of his last couple of visits to IHOP.
I’m not trying to play chess with alleged prophetic figures….I was just trying to clear up some questions. And I’m pretty sure his last two visits are on sermon index dot net under the title of “Becoming a Prophetic Church”.

Anyhow, if you wanted to call me to tell that stuff or write it here, either way is cool. I don’t have that cell phone number anymore; it was a company phone and I just changed jobs recently.

mark jr.

By: Bryan Purtle

Bryan Purtle — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:25:36 +0000

This is a rather unfortunate series of statements. I wonder if anyone here has considered their calling to cry out for mercy on behalf of the men who have fallen. I believe the heart of the Lord weeps when we speak so mercilessly of one another. I’m not excusing anyone’s immoral actions. I’m asking about our own hearts.
Mark, I don’t know if you’re aware of what transpired on Art’s last two visits to IHOP, but it might be wise (even if you still carry the same views of the movement) to remove his name from the equation. I’d be glad to discuss it, as one who has lived in Kansas City for almost 30 years.
Grace and peace,
Bryan

By: Brandon

Brandon — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:56:07 +0000

Oh, and about the huge retarded argument with no apparent biblical foundation

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

When you claim something is biblical try and back it up with the bible, copy paste is awesome, but physically looking it up and typing it is awesome as well

Out of context but read for yourself “boys and girls”

lol

Not to continue the argument… there’s not much arguing with scripture… read it for yourself, try just arguing with your bible, it’s a bit difficult, but i’m sure a lot of people do it..

or argue with God *guilty*

By: Brandon

Brandon — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:21:02 +0000

Who who is without sin cast the first stone

So only jesus could have stoned her if he wanted

But i digress

MARK, it’s been a week, come on, for awhile it was every week new blog for me to read…

Sorry, just had to say it, blog me up, bro

By: iseeitdifferently

iseeitdifferently — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 00:39:15 +0000

*steps into room, looks around*

*see’s posts and banterings*

*begins to take off belt*

“Don’t make me use this!!”

My dad, when me and my brothers were growing up, would hear the three of us making noise in the room and griping and stuff….then he’d barge in with his belt in his hand spank all of us no matter who was to blame. It was jacked, but it kept us from doing stuff like that very often.

So then, everybody….quit it.

…please, play nice. I don’t wanna have to tell anyone anything…so let’s just drop the torches, stones….and stuff.

Aight?
mark jr.

By: natrimony

natrimony — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 00:20:29 +0000

Jake,

Mark jr. is a big boy. He can moderate his own site. Get a sense of humor.